Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey Ellie, how you going? Good Andrew, how are you? No, we never start that way.

Speaker 2: 0:04

We do, we do no.

Speaker 1: 0:06

you say hello Andrew you just said how you going. We never start with how you going.

Speaker 2: 0:10

I'm starting with it how you doing.

Speaker 1: 0:12

No, don't, no, no, no. I need you to be consistent on me, please.

Speaker 2: 0:16

Are you good? You well. I got a question for you, mate. How many accountants does it take to screw in a light bulb? I don't know. One to screw in the light bulb, three to review and complete the checklists about screwing in the light bulb, six more to peer review the process and 27 more to point out the faults and the failures within the process that actually happened.

Speaker 1: 0:42

Where did those stats come from, Andrew?

Speaker 2: 0:45

Look, unofficial stats. Unofficial stats. Some might disagree with them. They'll probably be one of the 27.

Speaker 1: 0:51

They most probably will.

Speaker 2: 0:52

I probably should also add then another 4,500 on social media that will complain about the fact that a light bulb was screwed in instead of an environmentally friendly light bulb, or something like that Absolutely Everyone's got an opinion Depends how far and wide you push it, that question as to what you get back.

Speaker 1: 1:06

It is.

Speaker 2: 1:06

Now, as always, it connects to what we're talking about today. We're talking about being better. We've talked about a lot of really good stuff, but today it's about better collaboration. How do we be better collaborators? And this is specifically working within our client base.

Speaker 1: 1:18

Absolutely. How do we?

Speaker 2: 1:19

collaborate with our. It's better instead of fighting bicker with them.

Speaker 1: 1:22

So that's what I'm excited to hear. I don't fight bicker. I just want to hear from you about how you do it, Ali, because I reckon you do this well. I'm ready to rock and roll on this one. Let's go.

Speaker 2: 1:30

All right, we'll go to the theme tune. We'll come back in a second. All righty mate, you said you were ready to rock and roll. We're talking how do we be better collaborators? Yeah, how do we work and connect with our clients and and that kind of stuff in the way, when I think of this in a collaboration with a client context, yeah the way I really think about it is like it's not just like we're here to do the work and that's it, but it's like how do we actually work together.

Speaker 2: 2:06

How do we empower our clients? How do we make sure that we're just not doing all the heavy lifting and our clients are complaining about it? I think it's a really big one and I think sometimes because I'm a big fan of like saying hey, I'm here to serve my clients but, I, think by serving them, we can collaborate with them. So I want to hear from you, ali.

Speaker 1: 2:23

I agree with you. I think collaboration is super important. It's kind of like building that partnership right, but I have what is called the five Cs, the five Cs. You may be old enough to know. You know the chips, the CCs, like they're CC chips. Anyway, they had this slogan, which was you can't say no to CCs.

Speaker 2: 2:40

I was old enough to know what CCs are. You mean CC and dry the drinks?

Speaker 1: 2:44

yeah, no, no CCs as in the chips the chips right, and the slogan when they first started out was you can't say no to CCs. So anyway, I developed these five Cs for my team and it actually specifically relates to clients. So it's and I'm just going to list them and then we can like break them down or you can ask questions. First of all is communication them, and then we can like break them down or you can ask questions. It first of all is communication. Communication is key communicate, communicate, communicate. You can't over communicate. I don't think consistency also a superhero power here being really consistent with your clients and consistent expectations, foundations and delivery, always keeping the customer in mind, so walking in their shoes, showing empathy, um, active listening, collaboration, boom, boom.

Speaker 2: 3:26

Boom, there it is.

Speaker 1: 3:27

And conscious choices, so actually consciously choosing what we are going to do and how we're going to deliver that to the client.

Speaker 2: 3:34

My five.

Speaker 1: 3:34

CCs.

Speaker 2: 3:35

I did a quick bit of research and that slogan you can't say no which is not you can't say no, it's just you can't say no was being used by CC since the beginning of the 1980s. There you go, which was before I was born.

Speaker 1: 3:53

Well, clearly.

Speaker 2: 3:53

I was. I'm a 70s girl, so that's why it comes to mind, the most notable campaign featured the Simpsons during 1998.

Speaker 1: 4:02

Oh really, I thought it was like that little gremlin thing that they had for a little while that couldn't say no, that's probably not making much sense.

Speaker 2: 4:09

And the other thing that's maybe a little bit interesting. Since Arnott's sale of Snack Foods Limited, cc's have been marketed as being 100% Australian owned and made.

Speaker 1: 4:19

Oh really, I didn't know that, I didn't know if CC's were Aussie. Well, do you know? I gave CC's to my little girl the other day and she said they're revolting. Mummy, I want Doritos. And I thought that they tasted the same. Clearly they do not.

Speaker 2: 4:29

So I was told Hot, we need to run a poll. Cc's Doritos Mission. Are you going?

Speaker 1: 4:36

the Mission chips Like where are you going when you're? Oh, the Mission chips, yeah, yeah, like emissions.

Speaker 2: 4:40

Are you just going like home brand, like Coles brand, Woolies brand? What are we doing here with chips?

Speaker 1: 4:45

If you go chips, are you a CC's gal? Is that what you're doing? No, I'm not a CC's gal, I'm a soft vinegar gal, right?

Speaker 2: 4:51

Oh yeah, I mean yeah. But, I try and stay away from chips.

Speaker 1: 4:56

How about you? Do you have a fave?

Speaker 2: 4:58

I'm a light and tangy.

Speaker 1: 4:59

A light and tangy Smash a bit of light and tangy. Yeah, yeah, I love a bit of that.

Speaker 2: 5:07

I love a kind of sweet chilli, but also I do love like a super cheesy Dorito kind of, or CC.

Speaker 1: 5:11

I can see you as that type of a guy.

Speaker 2: 5:13

With all, like the orangey brownie, chemicals on it. That's it.

Speaker 1: 5:17

And it stays on your fingers right and then you have to rub and stuff. It's so much fun anyway let's go back to you.

Speaker 2: 5:23

Can't say no, so um, because I listened to all of them whilst you were saying them, but some other people might not have been listening. Do you want to say them again for?

Speaker 1: 5:29

us absolutely. So there's communication, yes, consistency yes customer in mind collaboration and conscious choices love that, okay, so let's walk.

Speaker 2: 5:41

Let's walk through, because this is all around, like you know, engaging in client. How do we actually deliver that? How do we?

Speaker 1: 5:48

collaborate and, I think, and be better for our clients, right? So this theme is around being better. So how do we be better for our clients? And, from my perspective, if myself and my team focus on these can't say no to CCs, then that's going to deliver a great collaboration, a great partnership with our clients, and it is about putting them first but also making sure that you know it's customised. It's about what works for everybody.

Speaker 2: 6:18

What do you think collaborating with a client looks like and is it different from, like you know, juniors to more senior people? What do you think that looks?

Speaker 1: 6:23

like, yeah it 100% is different. So I think at that senior advisor level it's very easy to collaborate with a client because you're working with them on really strategic matters, you're getting that banter backwards and forwards, you're understanding them implicitly and helping to guide and you really have built that partnership, whereas maybe when you're starting, collaborating with a client is maybe responding to a query within the right time frame or having a phone call with them rather than ghosting. And so I think collaboration does change. It also changes based upon the value of the client.

Speaker 2: 6:56

Okay, so people are paying the big bucks.

Speaker 1: 7:00

We're going to collaborate more? I think, no, I just think in relation to like, for instance, a small tax return, the collaboration on that isn't going to be as intense as what a 50 grand client is going to be right.

Speaker 2: 7:13

So there's a different delivery attached.

Speaker 1: 7:15

Yeah, there's a different delivery, but that doesn't mean that you should treat them differently or not be nice to them or not service them. It's just that you're collaborating with them differently. What's your thoughts?

Speaker 2: 7:27

on that, though, you know, I think it's really interesting because I think that collaboration like because whenever I think of collaborations, like I'm working together with something to deliver, deliver a result, so we're doing this together um, and a lot of the time, you know, what we do can be quite technical, quite complex, and it's like hey I kind of want the client getting too involved in this because they don't understand or comprehend it now particularly when it comes to, like, tax compliance side of things as opposed to, maybe, business advice and advisory.

Speaker 2: 7:52

I think that side of thing is where collaboration really starts to come in a fair bit more yeah but at the same time, I think there's some things that are really important when we're collaborating with clients that we have to be careful about right, so the first first one is it's my way or the highway?

Speaker 2: 8:05

So I know there's actually a lot of incredibly high value of creating rigid and good quality process and structure within our business so that we're efficient and we deliver consistently good quality results. However, sometimes those processes can get in the way of a good client experience or a collaborating experience.

Speaker 2: 8:24

It could be where it's like well give me the thing and piss off and let me go do my thing, or it might be done in a way where the client doesn't feel as involved in the process. They might actually be involved but they might not feel like they are. I often refer to, um, you know some of my experience taking over my parents business of like, all right, we've got this thing that we want to deal with, and me and dan, my business partner, we'd kind of workshop what it is and then we'd come to like my dad and be like, hey, this is what we're thinking. What do you reckon?

Speaker 2: 8:51

and he'd be like oh, this is what I think, and we then we'd go and make a decision. Now he, what it would be like is we'd come to him and we'd say hey, what color do you think it should be? He says green. We end up making it blue. He cracks the shit, but he didn't know that we're going to make it red before we spoke to him. So a lot of that was like a process. So we, I think, about the process we go through in collaborating with clients. At what point do we involve them? And it's important not to involve them at too early, when we're doing like little ground stuff. But we can't wait too late to involve them because either they might have some really integral, important information that could impact the result that we deliver, or they might feel disrespected and left out as a result of not being part of the process and don't have the full picture in mind when they're contemplating and collaborating with us.

Speaker 1: 9:32

Here's something that popped into my head when you said that Partnership, not prescription.

Speaker 2: 9:38

You just love your alliteration, don't you? Your letters and your numbers and things. I love a.

Speaker 1: 9:44

CCPP whatever. You love a pp okay, I don't know anyway you like the ccpp? Whatever. I don't even know what that means, but I don't either, but it's weird. Taglines pop into my head, but it's that prescriptive behavior where we fall into our comfort zones and we not then collaborating with the client and to allow us to be better.

Speaker 2: 10:06

We actually need to try and come at it as a partnership right so actually looking at how can we engage with them, how can we help them, how can we walk in their shoes um and well, in the shoes thing is interesting because, because to some extent, we want to understand it's really important to know where are they coming from right now but at the same time, if we are engaged to do technical, complex things, it's like I can't put myself too much in their shoes because I'm going to lose sight of actually the role that I play within this. But if you don't walk in their shoes, then you don't know how to deliver correct.

Speaker 1: 10:37

It's the walking the shoes is more about how you deliver it rather than the technical component. It's where are they at? What do they need to hear, what do they need to see? How can I engage with them? And really that collaboration is around helping them with problem solving right. Um, it's the combination of both perspectives. So you have to walk in their shoes because you know yours. You need to understand where they're coming from and providing those really innovative solutions. Like you know, I think that's super important and that's what builds the collaboration. That's what builds that strong partnership and that is what allows us to then be better. And I think when you actually engage with a client and you get success from the collaboration, it then empowers you to to continue to do that in each and every client relationship, and sometimes it might feel a bit uncomfortable, but the moment you step into it is the moment that you actually start to get empowered by it. So, and then it allows you to do it.

Speaker 2: 11:33

Yeah, like how do we actually put ourself in the client's shoes? Like how do we to collaborate? How do we do that?

Speaker 1: 11:39

What things do we do? You've got to ask them questions. You've got to ask them where they're at.

Speaker 2: 11:43

That's some stuff that we do, so for me, a lot of it is around the preparation for the collaboration.

Speaker 1: 11:48

Yes.

Speaker 2: 11:48

So what am I doing before I start collaborating? Am I asking questions of my clients? Where are you at with this? What is important to you? What things would you like to? So, if I'm thinking about when I'm delivering some advisory meeting kind of stuff, like I'm about to hold an advisory meeting, for me that's a very collaborative environment whilst they might definitely be looking for me to say a, b, c or d.

Speaker 2: 12:12

We actually have to work that together because I need to understand why it's a, b, c and d. So I always want them to actually deliver the advice, as opposed to me. But if I haven't done any prep work, if I haven't sent you know uh, you know, maybe a questionnaire, if I haven't gathered some information, if I haven't involved them a questionnaire if I haven't gathered some information, if I haven't involved them in laying the foundation of the conversation, when we start that conversation, they're starting from absolute bare one.

Speaker 2: 12:34

It's like, oh, where are we at? And if you're already coming in hot going, all right, we've got an hour. I gotta smash this out so I can get it done. They're just gonna be like they might love and appreciate it. But then I always wonder, like the less collaborative we are, the more we're treating our clients like they're children, like they're not adults like they're not smart enough, they're not capable, and I wonder at what point in time will our clients go?

Speaker 2: 12:58

you know what? It's great, you deliver great advice and that kind of stuff, and I really appreciate it all, but I just don't feel as involved in it and I think there's a different type of personality where they have that too. Some as involved in it and I think there's a different type of personality where they have that too. Some people don't care. Well, no, no, don't care.

Speaker 2: 13:12

Some people don't want the responsibility of involvement Just tell me what to do, but I think more and more these days like the Australian dream of owning a home is now the Australian dream of running a business has been my opinion for a number of years. Yeah right, yeah, you've said that before so much more of an entrepreneurial mindset and you see, like I remember like 10 or so years ago, when I was, like you know, learning business and like I was things are going well and like I can share some thoughts because I work.

Speaker 2: 13:35

Not only do I run a business, but I help other people run businesses and then I started seeing like an interior designer like run commentary on like how to run a business. And then I saw like a landscape garden doing. I was like what the fuck? How do these people know? I'm like, hold on a second. There is a much bigger mindset in business that I think we forget like these people that run businesses know what they're doing some of them don't don't get us wrong some of us don't know what we're doing, but I think if we don't involve in that process we're really losing out on the value that they can add to it which I think in turn, we learn a lot about you.

Speaker 2: 14:07

I don't know about you, but a lot of the advice I give these days I've learnt from clients from past.

Speaker 1: 14:11

They taught it to me, I didn't teach them it. Yeah, and I completely agree with you. I don't think we should walk in the room thinking that we're the experts. I think if you walk in the room thinking that we're both going to learn something and both going to help each other, I think that that really is the power in the meeting and we can't and this is actually common feedback I get from clients that are coming on board- is that their prior accountants were condescending or spoke down to them or talked in a language they didn't understand.

Speaker 2: 14:39

Surely not. No, that wouldn't happen in our industry.

Speaker 1: 14:44

Oh look, you've worked with them, I've worked with them. So I think it's important that we try and leave our ego at the door. We don't try, and you know, deliver this advice to make us feel more intelligent and that they're not. I think we need to walk in thinking that we both have different skill sets and this is about merging and joining those skill sets so that we can basically become a powerhouse together. Okay, and each client will come in in a different way and you need to collaborate with them in a different way.

Speaker 1: 15:13

And this is where, in my ccs, having that customer in mind, um is really about customizing to that particular person, not breaking all of the processes and the rules, because that's not what we're talking about. We're just talking about collaboration. How do we collaborate with them as an individual, as a business, with their larger team? And I think when you have that customer in mind mentality, it takes it off of you, it takes it off of that self, and puts it on to them so that we don't come across as being condescending or rude or, you know, trying to one-up them, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 15:48

You know who I love collaborating with Our sponsors. What a segue, hey. And the reason we have these amazing sponsors is because we do work closely with them, we collaborate with them, so we're going to take a beat. We're going to take a moment, kick back, grab a whiskey, get a wine, have a cup of tea whatever your thing is and have a listen to some words from our amazing, amazing sponsors.

Speaker 2: 16:13

Ali, I'm sure you get asked all the time, just like I do. Who do you use for digital signatures? And I know we use the same team the crew at Fuse Sign right.

Speaker 1: 16:21

They're the absolute bomb. Yes, I get asked that all the time. It is digital signing done. Simply, my friend, it is amazing.

Speaker 2: 16:27

It's so simple, I love it. Done simply, my friend, it is amazing. It's so simple, I love it. It gives you great control, heaps of flexibility and the experience for clients and team is quite exceptional too right, super easy to use on both sides, bloody amazing excellent. Get amongst friends. Fuse your signatures today with fuse sign. As you all know, marketing, branding and identity is something that's extremely important to me personally, as well as my business. Illuminate Ali, I know it is for you as well.

Speaker 1: 16:53

Important to us too. And do you know what Practice and Pixels they are the best for digital marketing, website design and brands for accountants, they absolutely are, and they look after our brand here.

Speaker 2: 17:03

Yeah, they do so you have a great experience, so good. But what I love about them is they take the time to truly understand what makes your firm different within the industry so they can accelerate your growth through fantastic marketing, connecting your clients, your team and your community for good prosperity going forward.

Speaker 1: 17:17

Absolutely Get on to the branding practice and pixels, my friends Yo. What a collaborative bunch they are, ellie hey, I know they're so good, they even collaborate together.

Speaker 2: 17:28

Together Individually bunch they are ellie. Hey, I know they're so good, they even collaborate together, together, individually with us, with artists, it's just.

Speaker 1: 17:33

I mean, they're just great at being better collaborators just bloody good, mate.

Speaker 2: 17:38

So I want to. I want to pose a bit of a thought process around this idea of collaborating with our clients, because I feel like there are there are definitely a lot of times where we're sitting in meetings or reading through emails or on a phone call or trying to do something for a client and we're like fucking doing my head in, like I'm, you're getting pushed back or they're not listening or that kind of stuff, and you're really struggling in that kind of space and I think there's a bunch of things that that could cause that. But but but I I guess there's one thing I want to pose here Instead of pushing forwards and let's collaborate more, I wonder if we need to take a step backwards. And take a step backwards and look at that client and potentially look at that client base that you're sitting in and going. Have I got the kind of clients?

Speaker 2: 18:22

that work well with me. Are they the kind of clients that I can communicate with.

Speaker 1: 18:28

Do they?

Speaker 2: 18:28

listen? Do they contribute? Do I feel respected and trust? Because I know there's a big part of collaboration that us, as accountants, despite being the ones that are paid to do our jobs, it is important that we feel respected and trusted by our clients as well. And so I wonder, I just ponder, I think I sit back and I amuse.

Speaker 1: 18:46

Yeah, and I do agree with you like I agree with you that that is so foundational. It's like the number one thing, because you can't collaborate with people that you don't get, that you don't like that, aren't meeting the expectations that you have of them and vice versa. And so you know, it's like being in a relationship but you don't really like the person. I mean it's never going to work. And so, yeah, I completely and utterly agree with you and that's so foundational. And the second component, I think, is communication.

Speaker 1: 19:16

I think we all think that we're great communicators and we're most probably not. We're most probably weak in some areas and strong in others, and so we can't see our own blind spots. And so when I say communicate, communicate, communicate, I mean being open as far as you can and like sometimes I think we communicate but it's in our heads or we assume that the other person knows what we're talking about. And so really focusing on communication and, you know, getting into that mindset of active listening and then asking them, you know, once you've provided some advice, what did you hear, what did you get from that, what can I help you with? Because so often we hear it through our own lenses, and so that communication piece is super important.

Speaker 2: 19:58

It's huge, because I look at that client base and I say you go, you've got something important.

Speaker 1: 20:02

sorry, Well, no, I had an accountant pop up the other day and I looked on their website and on their website for the first time I've ever seen it. It was something around our commitment to each other, and I'm not sure whether you've ever seen this on somebody's website. It was my commitment to you and your commitment to me. I'm going to send it to you because it's it. Look, it looks like marriage vows and I kind of had a bit of a giggle about it. But then I actually thought to myself maybe, just maybe they're onto something. I wouldn't do it in the way that they've done it, but it's really just about setting these clear guidelines and expectations. I've used that language a lot in the past.

Speaker 2: 20:45

This is a two-way relationship. Like there's a role that I play. But there's a role that you play and I think you know setting that from the start, like if you go back to the client base that you've got, either maybe you've got the wrong client or two, or maybe when you took them on board you didn't communicate enough in the early days of what this relationship looks like and yeah, and and I often refer to like, you've got your marital spousal relationship, you've got a business partner relationship.

Speaker 2: 21:06

I would refer to us as a professional relationship. We are here to assist with our professional knowledge and expertise to help you to run a better business. But to that you need to play your role and I need to play my role. And this is what those roles look like and if we don't play them well, shit goes bad, and I think it's really important to do that day one, because that means then you can get way more collaborative with your clients in day three, four and five.

Speaker 1: 21:29

Yeah, like some of these commitments on here are, you'll make time available to work on things you've agreed to work on for me. You agree to listen to any advice I offer. Like sometimes I think we presume or assume that that's what a client's going to do, but actually putting it in front of them and making them kind of sign off that hey, like this is a two-way thing. Talk about that stuff, yeah I thought oh, maybe this is, maybe they're onto something you had a giggle at first and then you went oh, hold on I did, I did, and then I was like oh, hang on next week we're gonna load, load up all an advisory's website.

Speaker 2: 22:02

There's gonna be our vows for you, no and I'll get a prenup in.

Speaker 1: 22:08

No, no, none of that stuff the prenup is the upfront payment yeah, something like that, the t's and c's, um.

Speaker 1: 22:15

but yeah, I just mean, maybe there is value in all of that really foundational stuff and not getting so frustrated in the moment with the team or the client, and I think that that's another important one. So often we can get frustrated, but you have to kind of sit back and say, well, where are they coming from? Do they even understand the concepts that I'm talking about? Because? And say, well, where are they coming from? Do they even understand the concepts that I'm talking about? Because maybe they're frustrated too, and that's what's coming through. So I'm really just trying to break it down and try and come at it from like a bigger picture perspective and not just into that nitty-gritty detail.

Speaker 1: 22:46

And I think that that's what helps with collaboration and respecting the other person. You know, I think that's foundational.

Speaker 2: 22:52

You said team before and I think that's a really interesting part of this collaboration and we're talking about collaborating with our clients. But I know that as you start to scale as a business and all of a sudden you can't be the one that's always collaborating. You need other people to get involved in collaboration.

Speaker 2: 23:08

So, there's definitely an educational element, but I think there's also a diversity element that kicks into play here, and it's one thing that we're kind of lucky with at illuminate, where I've got you know four or five other you know senior team members who can and to be honest, they do. I don't do much client work anymore. I'm some part-time retired, yes, but um, but because we have that like we have, okay, great, who do we think this client's going to work well with? And? And it's not that we we take on clients that are like, okay, that one's a piece of shit, but oh, they'll be fine over there. We're taking it's not that we take anybody, it's more that I know I was in it today like, oh, we got this client. They have a bit of this approach you know they might be.

Speaker 2: 23:47

You know this particular client was more open to things in like um, uh, like eastern medicine and and, and, and you know know, meditation and regular healing and these kind of things that sometimes some you know structured accountants might be like well, that's a bit weird. But we have a broader perspective of team. You go great, I know that you will connect well with them. I know that you'll either appreciate what they do or respect what they do more, and I know they'll have a better experience, which means you can collaborate better.

Speaker 2: 24:14

Good approach I think that's something we're. Quite. Fortunate here is that, whilst we do still fit within the box of what an accountant kind of might act or behave like, we have diversity within the team yeah, I think, if you keep trying to hire the same people within your team that think, act, behave and do like what you do.

Speaker 2: 24:32

It can somewhat pigeonhole the type of clients you can take on board which might not be a bad thing, depending on what you're looking to do, but if you're looking to grow and scale and have a bigger business, you need the diversity you need people who can connect with other people. You know, you need the males, the females, the youngs, the old, the lefts. You need that broad diversity.

Speaker 1: 24:59

They all need to be respectful of everybody internally, but I think that's a huge part of being able to collaborate with clients absolutely, and how powerful is that? And there was something else that popped into my mind when you were talking about that, and it actually dates back to the tech episode that um jack and amy just did actually on email communication. But they were talking about how to collaborate more with your clients using technology. So, are they on slack? Are they on teams? Are you gonna, you know, dm them? Are you gonna phone, use a phone, email, whatever, whatever? So I think there's also as part of this conversation on collaboration can we leverage the tech to also be a part and help on that collaboration space?

Speaker 2: 25:28

yeah, that's a good point, because you have to think bigger and beyond. Like collaboration isn't just oh, I'm standing in front of you talking, it's like there's so much more to how we do that. Like you, there might be time zone differences, so how do we collaborate when I'm talking to you but you're currently sleeping, and vice?

Speaker 2: 25:44

versa um how do we collaborate when an idea pops into my head but you're not like yet working in that space, so that async communication, all that, all those kind of things come through? There's, I think there's a there it isn't there.

Speaker 1: 25:54

And I think even during COVID we realised that we needed to collaborate in different ways. Instead of just that face-to-face, didn't we Like? We had to use all the other products, like the Zooms and the Looms, and we had to get a bit more creative with our collaboration because it wasn't so personal, it wasn't so face-to-face.

Speaker 2: 26:19

So I think that tech and leveraging the tech actually has a part to play in this conversation too, I think the last kind of point that I want to kind of land on here before we start wrapping this sucker up is I know personally that it's very challenging for me to deliver advice and for it not to be listened to or taken or to action.

Speaker 2: 26:30

But I know that for me to be a better collaborator and a better advisor is I have to respect and understand that sometimes my advice will not be taken because it is not my decision to make those actions. So I think what to be better collaborators, we have to be better at at not getting what we want. Because particularly I think when you're entrepreneurially minded, like we might be running our own businesses and we've seen all these things and we've done all these things, and I might look at a client's business, be like great, bang, bang, bang, do this, this would be great. And they don't do that. Initially you can be like, oh, you freaking idiots, why don't you listen to what I said? Like we, you know, but it's like you know what at the end of the day, I'm doing my best to empower you to make great decisions.

Speaker 2: 27:10

If you didn't make a great decision and it didn't go, well, that is okay. If I have a conversation with you next, I shouldn't be sitting there going. Well, you didn't bloody listen to me. We go cool Well that didn't quite work.

Speaker 2: 27:22

What do we think we can do now? And I think for me that's a big thing is understanding that just because I have an opinion or advice that I want to give doesn't mean it's going to be action now. It's different if it's like technical, like that is a capital gain, you have to pay tax on it that's different. If someone wants to try and commit tax fraud because I don't want to take it right, that's very different yeah, I'm talking more collaboration around advisory.

Speaker 2: 27:46

I think I'll be structured this way and like I had a client meeting today and they're like oh, you know, I'm a soft trader, you know, I think I should become a company. I I'm like well, let's walk through that.

Speaker 1: 27:55

What are?

Speaker 2: 27:55

you looking to do with the future? Okay, cool, we're about to go and do this big event. It's going to have like a million bucks worth of tickets just from the one event. I'm going to run it under my name. I'm like no you fucking not.

Speaker 2: 28:15

We're going to stick it as a sole trader. I'm not going to set up a company. I'm going. You know what. I've given you everything I possibly can. I will support you and I'll look after what it needs to be. I'm going to let you know vehemently that I think you're making the wrong call, but I respect your decision to make and.

Speaker 1: 28:27

I'm going to let that happen and that's for me.

Speaker 2: 28:37

I've definitely gone through that and I learned many years ago that just to let go and not hold it because I was I just cared too much, but I think it's just let it go, just let it go I think, what we need to be cautious of. There is what I like to call ask holes, where they ask and that's like see, there's some phrases you say that I'm like ellie, that makes you sound like I'm like 75 years old, but an ask hole, an ask hole.

Speaker 1: 28:58

So somebody asks and you give them advice and they never take it.

Speaker 1: 29:00

There's a difference between an ask hole and somebody that is going to not take the advice because of a specific thing, that it might not resonate with them.

Speaker 1: 29:07

So I think we need to kind of yeah, if there's somebody that is in your client base and you're in the advisory space and they're constantly not listening and they're just whinging and being the victim, that's a different play. But if they have evidenced and shown that there is this collaboration between you, and every now and again they'll do something differently, I think that's okay. And then that's when you need to learn oh hey, I've just got to let this thing go. You know, play the Elsa Frozen music. So I think, in that regard, like we need to be very careful about it and I think that's just experience. Like I don't think our juniors would be able to do that. They might get very upset, but when you've been in the advisory business for a long time, you know that not everyone's going to listen and in fact, it gets the point where I actually have clients that do absolutely everything that I say, and they are the minority in my client base and I love and adore working with them.

Speaker 2: 29:56

A little bit scary, because I'm like, hey, you need to, you need to just maybe grow up a little bit like if you do everything I say then it's all sits on my shoulders, but anyway, we've been chatting. We've been chatting a lot. This has been good. Um, we're going to wrap this sucker up. Um, we're rolling good. One thing I wanted to land as we finish up is don't forget that when you are collaborating with clients, more can come from that. There can be more opportunity, more perspective.

Speaker 2: 30:24

When you do that well, more referrals come through absolutely opportunities to do extra work with clients come through, good stuff comes, and so don't shy away from it, because you never know what it might bring the opportunity that you might get and the joy that you get from it, and the joy that your clients get from it too. And I mean that's what we're here to do is to do fucking good work for good bloody people.

Speaker 1: 30:45

I know I couldn't agree more. Let's just land on that, because that was perfection.

Speaker 2: 30:48

Amazing. Well, ellie, as always you've been stunning, fantastic, wise, sage advice it's someone would.

Speaker 1: 30:59

Someone would think you were at least 10 years my age. Oh wow, thank you for making me feel old, andrew, and thank you for being all right. No, you're a legend. I appreciate you. What a compliment backhanded.

Speaker 2: 31:09

Thank you for being appropriately average I do what I can and I can.

Speaker 1: 31:13

Only because that's what you always say, so I was just repeating it back to you. But no, you're amazing. I love you, thank you community.

Speaker 2: 31:19

Enjoy your next accounting adventures. I'd love to share it and like rate. Come on, and all the bullshit that you can do.

Speaker 1: 31:27

We put that at the back.

Speaker 2: 31:29

Come hang out with us and we'll catch up with you soon at the next adventure. See you guys, see ya Hooey. Wasn't that a fun adventure. My friends, thank you so much, so incredibly much, for hanging out with us today. Ali, you've been amazing. Andrew, you've been all right. How good is it to be able to have adventures together.

Speaker 1: 31:53

It so is, and you know what. Keep following us. We are all over the socials at Accounting Adventures. Check us out on the website. Give us a bit of a like. You know how much we love that stuff.

Speaker 2: 32:04

The best thing about the adventure is the people that we do it with. So thank you so much for listening, thank you so much for hanging out with us, and please bring all the ideas, keep them coming. We can't wait to share more cool adventures with you.

Speaker 1: 32:17

We love you guys.