LIVE FOMO Friday | Bringing the Love to the Accounting Profession

Speaker 1: 0:13

Hey guys, I did want to start with a random joke, if you don't mind. Why should you? It's a bit of a tough question. Why did the cannibalist break up with her boyfriend?

Speaker 2: 0:33

Andrew, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 0:35

Because he didn't suit her taste.

Speaker 2: 0:37

Oh, that's disgusting. Thank you, Don't laugh at it.

Speaker 1: 0:41

Amy Don't laugh honestly. Ellie and Amy can swap.

Speaker 2: 0:44

Amy can burn because you're laughing like you're an exporter, amy, you, she laughs at the naughty jokes. I keep you honest. I keep you honest.

Speaker 1: 0:52

Lovely. Now David, who does a wonderful programme, will put some cool things in. So what I want to talk about is what we're going to talk about today, and we've got a bit of a theme that comes from there. And I wonder if you guys can think about this, because normally when you love something and you want it to flourish, you know it's much like a child or a partner or a sporting team. Right, you love it and you want it to do really well. So today, what I'd love you all to think about is reflect on how you feel about your job, your career, your workplace and your industry, something that ideally, you love, that you want to flourish. And what the four of us today are going to do is we're going to talk a bit about the focus on the accounting industry, our beloved accounting industry. One might say Much loved.

Speaker 1: 1:32

Across the four of us here, we have a combined 75 years working in or with accountants in the accounting industry, which is good. Any votes on who you think has the most years of experience.

Speaker 2: 1:43

Andrew, honestly, do you have to do this to me? I don't know. It's definitely Jack. It's definitely Jack. Yeah, it's Jack, it's definitely Jack yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:51

Fantastic.

Speaker 2: 1:52

What year do you have?

Speaker 1: 1:54

20 years.

Speaker 2: 1:55

Do you have 20?

Speaker 1: 1:56

This is my 20th. This would be my 30th year of 20, 20,. 20 plus one is not 30.

Speaker 3: 2:02

21st year and you're only 21. I sell types of toilets now.

Speaker 1: 2:07

This is my 21st year of accounting. I started fresh out of high school at a big forefirm.

Speaker 2: 2:12

Yes, I started fresh out of high school too, but I need to add the 10 to the 20. You're good, I'm good, thank you.

Speaker 3: 2:19

That's 30.

Speaker 2: 2:20

That is 30. I'm a big accounting industry.

Speaker 1: 2:23

So, over that collective 75 years of experience, all of us at times have had absolute moments of absolute joy, absolutely, but also probably moments of absolute desperation. Absolutely and tears and each of us it may be not Allie, but I'd say each of us at multiple times have probably contemplated leaving the industry altogether?

Speaker 5: 2:43

No, I've never 100%. Yep, it's nearly driven Really. No, I've had moments. I've had moments.

Speaker 2: 2:48

Never considered leaving Yep. Definitely Love it. I'm not an accountant there. Have you tried that? I think?

Speaker 1: 2:54

probably in the early days I thought about quitting to get a job for zero. The number of people that were thinking that back in the day was there, jack.

Speaker 5: 2:58

Was that you Jack.

Speaker 3: 2:59

Did you apply?

Speaker 1: 3:00

for a job at zero. Have you applied?

Speaker 3: 3:01

No, did I, did I get it? No, oh no, here I am that breaks my heart.

Speaker 5: 3:09

I did too, and I didn't get it either.

Speaker 3: 3:11

Oh, why I look back and I laugh.

Speaker 5: 3:13

Me too.

Speaker 2: 3:13

Have you applied for a job at zero, Andrew? No, I've never applied.

Speaker 1: 3:15

No, so they applied. They keep asking you to come back, though for some reason we have not, they ask you to come back. Just to hang out with them. I'll hang out, hang cheers.

Speaker 2: 3:24

I'm paid. Yeah, fair enough.

Speaker 1: 3:26

So today, with a focus on this thing that we love, what we want to talk about is how do we ensure that it flourishes, how do we ensure this thing that we love and this thing that we care about actually makes some of it good, something that people are proud of and something that people want to be a part of? And you might have seen throughout forever, people always talk about the accounting industry and how. No one wants to be an accountant people leaving the accounting industry. So what we're going to do today is I've got a few questions I've worded them out a little bit beforehand of some questions.

Speaker 1: 3:52

And a question, because what's one of your favorite things, ali, when you start with a business? What's your most important thing in business?

Speaker 3: 3:58

The why.

Speaker 1: 3:59

Your why right. So to make sure that I'm appeasing Ali's use of the word why today, thank, you.

Speaker 2: 4:04

I appreciate it. I've got some why questions.

Speaker 1: 4:05

I'm going to go from there. If you want to contribute, if you feel like there's anything valuable or you think like we're talking bullshit, jump on in. And for those listening online. We're actually in a room right now in the topiary. We've got some incredible sponsors. We've got Mike Presbetty with FYI, we've got practice and pixels, we've got Fuse Sign and we have the wonderful expert, as well as Clarity Street, who's put this on today as well.

Speaker 2: 4:26

So if you hear random noises, super lucky, it's amazing.

Speaker 1: 4:28

Yeah, it's not my children. Well then, my son's turning one on Sunday, I know.

Speaker 2: 4:34

I can't believe that's happened so fast. Happy birthday man. Happy birthday, that's a little rico, happy birthday little rico, he's very cute. So panelists, including myself, yes, Feels a bit formal when you call us panelists. This is a formal interview. That's crew Podcast, mob, crew Fan Mob.

Speaker 1: 4:51

I like so we often hear this phrase of like oh, people don't want to be an accountant, they don't want to do it. It's just an industry that they're avoiding. They don't want to be a part of it. Why would someone not want to join? What do you think of the things that are getting in the way of someone wanting to go? Oh, you know what accounting could be a career that I could do, yeah. And maybe if you could reflect for the two of you who are, in fact, accounts Jack and Kelly, yes, and then Amy, who spends a lot of time with accounts what do you think is the things before people even start becoming? What is that stuff that stops us?

Speaker 5: 5:21

It's boring. But about numbers Boring, why would I want it's?

Speaker 2: 5:24

boring. I want something exciting.

Speaker 5: 5:25

I want to do something that's exciting. I want to change the world. No, I'm joking, but is there? A preconceived idea around the perception of what accounting is.

Speaker 2: 5:38

Definitely preconceived and I think people don't actually understand what accountants do or are and I think they think it's just numbers, when it's so much more than that. So I think there's a level of education around what an accountant is and does. But we looked up in chat GBT, didn't we? I did About what are the stereotypes of accountants.

Speaker 1: 5:58

So in classic Andrew Lazy Australian form Because everyone when I've travelled overseas and I talk to people in the UK and American and I'm in Dubai in a month. If you want to come hang out in Dubai, come next month, it's going to be fun. There's a conference that we read. They just started paying company tax two years ago.

Speaker 1: 6:14

Two years ago is when they introduced corporate tax in Dubai. It's crazy, anyway, you're amazing. So but every overseas they like how come Australians are so far advanced with technology? I'm like it's because we're lazy and we don't want to do it. So we've tacked and do it for us. We'd rather just drink beers and be at the pub or at the beach.

Speaker 5: 6:32

Hang on, are we smarter? We just want to be more efficient.

Speaker 1: 6:35

No, that's a joke, but they believe that.

Speaker 2: 6:38

So, now you're giving them the preconceived idea that Australians are lazy and that accounting is boring.

Speaker 1: 6:43

So what I did is I asked chat GP and I said what is the general public's perception on accounting? And it came back with accounts can widely vary depending on individual experiences, cultural influences and media portrayals. I was like that's actually really bloody good. However, some common perceptions of accountants include number one they are trustworthy. Number two they are detail orientated. Number three they are boring or dull.

Speaker 2: 7:14

Thank, you chat GPT Number four they have financial expertise.

Speaker 1: 7:20

Number five they are conservative. Number six they are professional. And number seven and I fucking love this one they are necessary but overlooked.

Speaker 5: 7:30

Yes, nice yes.

Speaker 1: 7:33

And to read into that last one it says, while many people recognise the importance of accountants in ensuring the smooth functioning of businesses and organisations, their contributions may sometimes be overlooked or taken for granted.

Speaker 2: 7:46

And that actually touches on the point of yeah, you're welcome. That actually touches on the point of people in the profession who are feeling fatigued and potentially trying to exit. If you're feeling, if you're giving everything and you're feeling overlooked because you're not feeling valued, then people may be leaving the profession because of that. But I also want to mention that chat GPT says that it can make mistakes and that you should check for the correct information.

Speaker 1: 8:10

And it was from two years ago or something like that, wasn't it?

Speaker 2: 8:12

So maybe it made a mistake, but I think there is a preconceived idea.

Speaker 5: 8:15

Definitely, but the preconceived idea being that number three on that list was that you're boring yeah. It's so far from the truth. It is. I mean 100% it is. But the perception, though, to the public is that you know accounting and numbers, is that it's boring. So how do we change that?

Speaker 3: 8:30

Well, I just start to think about why I got into accounting, to think about why you might not get into it. But I mean I got into it because it was a realistic, stable future focused like career that I was definitely going to get a job with, no matter what I did at uni, and a lot of jobs weren't that much of a guarantee. And so I think when you look at why not, if people are thinking it's less stable, it's less future proof, now I mean I can understand why someone might not want to get into it. But also we had a really interesting conversation which I think was a great point, when we were kind of prepping for this, because around the Parent-child discussion, around what you should be growing up and doing is changing as well. It's going from I'd be great if you can just get a job too. You should change the world. You should, which there's nothing against me Be happy be satisfied be filled.

Speaker 3: 9:19

Conversation and so accounting? How do we get accounting in the conversation if you can change the world as an accountant?

Speaker 1: 9:24

Yeah, it's so interesting and this whole idea of why, what are people looking for, what are their parents, and you know what we want the best for our kids. You know, like I've got three ones now and they're amazing and I want them to have great lives. Am I gonna tell them they should be an accountant? Absolutely, I do.

Speaker 2: 9:42

I'll be or work in the plumbing shop? Probably not. There's a variety of careers.

Speaker 1: 9:46

But but the on that chat GPT response.

Speaker 3: 9:49

The thing that I found really interesting was it talked about is influenced by individual experiences, cultural influences and Media portrayals and if we think about media and today we're consuming media in different kind of avenues and what we're seeing is we're seeing how everyone's fucking amazing, cool and wonderful.

Speaker 1: 10:06

And I want to be amazing, cool and wonderful and I think, on your point, jackie, we're talking about you know there's, you know the accounting industry is a job that is. You know it's well-paying, it's, it's good work. I get that kind of stuff. It's a good, stable career solid.

Speaker 1: 10:18

Yeah, and then what it means is, with that stability, you can do cool stuff with your life. Mm-hmm, I think people are saying no, but I want to do cool stuff with work and with life and overlaying that on top, and that could be achievable, it could be great, and I think accounting can be cool and can be awesome, but what they do is they put accounting is not cool and all awesome, and thus I want to do the really cool shit, which means they're creating a huge amount of risk with the way they approach their life and I just suddenly don't want to be an accountant because they think it's not cool and it's bloody cool and I had a light bulb moment when you said this if we can infiltrate the media and Do like a TV show, like a reality, oh my god do we need Tate.

Speaker 5: 10:56

Maybe we need Tate here to infiltrate the media and they can follow Andrew and.

Speaker 2: 10:59

I and Jack and Amy around and all of you guys, and they'll realize how exciting.

Speaker 1: 11:04

Accounting is. We do have a special guest tonight. I'm not gonna tell you who it is. But we have someone special that is coming here, hasn't has not performed in at least six months in a story To Ali's point.

Speaker 3: 11:15

We could do that. You know the TikTok guy who does that. They drive up in a sports car and he asks what do you do for a living? We could just do that with accountants. I don't know what cars they'll have, but we do the same thing.

Speaker 1: 11:27

I do have a group now Taxi-Affective Australia Actually, Andrew as we were prepping, andrew showed us something.

Speaker 2: 11:31

It's Year 13, yeah, yeah, yeah, can you talk about that?

Speaker 1: 11:35

So I did a bit of work with CAANZ, who partnered with an organization called Year 13, and Year 13 is an exceptional Kind of organization and it was founded by a couple of guys who lost one of their best mates because they were struggling with the perception of what their career could look like. Can moving out of school and they took their own life and I'm like amazing. So this organization wants to ensure that people leaving school understand their options and there is a future and there is good, and so CAANZ, the good one, is partnering.

Speaker 2: 12:18

You must be very good at multiple choice. Well done this is really good. Sorry, sorry, that is not. We're sharing the love today. I'm sorry.

Speaker 5: 12:27

I said sorry so.

Speaker 1: 12:29

CAANZ and Year 13 are partnering together to really focus on people who are progressing through high school and leaving high school to give them a better perception of what actually is an accountant. What do they actually do? Why do we think so negatively about what it is that they do? And if you want to check it out, just type in CAANZ and then Year 13. You'll find some content they've done. They did a weird TikTok with me where it's like ask me weird questions what do you do? How do you do this stuff?

Speaker 2: 12:55

I'm trying to work out what profession you were and how it was answered. And I think this is the thing how we talk about our jobs, how we portray what we do every day, how we portray and have great client relationships, how we talk to our team, how we talk to everybody outside of our industry around accounting and what we do and that we actually need to be proud of ourselves. I come from the great state of RADelaid. I call it RADelaid for a reason. Adelaid has a persona, doesn't it, of people that don't live there. What do they think about it? Churches, churches and it's boring.

Speaker 5: 13:33

No, no, no. Churches and wines. Stay away.

Speaker 3: 13:36

It's boring we need to keep the property prices down. Because you're trying to get in. It's all the ablating itself. I agree you don't have to go boring. You shouldn't have to. It sucks. There's no good wine there.

Speaker 2: 13:47

You fall into that trap of, yeah, I live in a boring state, so I've chosen to go against that and say, no, we live in a great state. I'm proud of where we live. I live in RADelaid and I do that with accounting. I'm proud of being an accountant. I'm proud of what I do for my clients. I think it has great value and I think so it stems from this confidence within to say and then we portray that out to the world and that it gets a bit, you know, a volume in numbers.

Speaker 3: 14:16

So I think about the video that Andrew did, having seen it.

Speaker 1: 14:19

Go have a look at it, if you can find it. I think the world is promoting the shit that I do Carry on. If anyone else follows the video with me, come up later.

Speaker 3: 14:25

we'll do something sweet To your point about twisting reality, ali like. I think, like a lot of the people in this room who run accounting firms, are business owners. They run their own business and accounting is a fantastic avenue if you want to run your own thing Absolutely it's foundational.

Speaker 3: 14:43

A lot of that is, you know, if you do watch what Andrew said, you know it's flexibility, it's working from anywhere, it's working with clients you love, it's picking who you work with, it's deciding how you do your day, like if you have any interest in that that avenue. Being a business owner is often a massively risky thing to do. You know entrepreneurship there's huge rewards but massive risks. But if you go down the accounting channel it's kind of the standard approach. If you do a decent job as an accountant for five, ten years, by the end of that You're walking into potentially running your own thing. Yeah, because you know how many professions can you do that?

Speaker 5: 15:18

No, I think that's an issue with the perception of what accounting is, which is it's numbers. What about it's problem solving? Yeah, it's storytelling. Yeah, it's storytelling. It's so many other things and just numbers.

Speaker 1: 15:31

We have to be careful, though, not to get to the wanky thing right.

Speaker 5: 15:34

Sure no, and I agree that I do agree with that.

Speaker 1: 15:36

Physician descriptions. I'm like I'm the director of the project.

Speaker 2: 15:37

I do agree with that, but I can't Like let's not chuck and try and oversell this thing, but there is a big jump between I don't value what I do, I'm boring and I'm going to use all these fluffy, wanky words. There's a huge jump and we just need to find at least take a step forward.

Speaker 1: 15:52

I agree, you know we're cool. So so question to you. I had a rant on LinkedIn about six months ago.

Speaker 2: 15:58

Which one? Yeah, oh sorry.

Speaker 1: 16:02

I've been very quiet of late.

Speaker 2: 16:04

Thank you, one of your rants got me in trouble, so don't even.

Speaker 1: 16:07

Yes, ah, very good, but I had a bit of a rant about this stereotype and perception of the industry and my question is, yes, who's creating the stereotype?

Speaker 3: 16:20

and who's living out the perception of it.

Speaker 1: 16:22

Are we creating it or is the broader community doing it? And what I want you to think about if you run an accounting firm here and I apologise if I'm going to potentially beat the shit out of your marketing strategy if you use the words on your website or anything that says we're not your typical accountant, if you say we speak your language, you are effectively saying that your industry is a pile of horseshit and you are better than them. That's what you're saying. We are not your average, because average is not good. We are.

Speaker 2: 16:51

We are playing, so therefore.

Speaker 1: 16:53

Apologies my violent language.

Speaker 2: 16:54

No no, the majority are saying that they're playing into this boring archetype. You know stereotype.

Speaker 3: 17:01

And that your we're not boring, we're cool, we're fun. Exception to the rule.

Speaker 2: 17:03

So by saying that you're exception to the rule, then you're basically saying the industry is boring and we shouldn't do that.

Speaker 5: 17:08

Right.

Speaker 2: 17:09

Because it's doubling down on what people actually think Self-perpetuating. So maybe you take the positive spin on that and you know, make your website branding whatever personality-based. You know, and I've done it, you've done it. It's easy to stand out in the crowd in an accountant market, but it's just about being yourself.

Speaker 1: 17:29

Well, my entire experience as well is like yes, you probably have heard oh, my accountant's annoying. This is why I'm changing. You've probably heard that multiple times. Why are they changing? If that's what you consider the average, rather than saying you're not the average, use language that talks about stuff that people are looking for. You know we're proactive, we connect with you, we are Whatever that stuff they're looking for. Use that as your selling point, as opposed to we're not everybody else, and I think that creates. And if you can't do it, talk to Tarson from Practice and Pixels and he'll hook you up or come over and chat with Ali and other people.

Speaker 2: 18:00

You know, I think that the point here is that we need to be really careful around our verbiage and what we're telling people.

Speaker 1: 18:06

We do.

Speaker 2: 18:06

And how we're communicating to market, because we are actually doubling down on the stereotype of what people think by moving into that scenario.

Speaker 1: 18:16

We're going to move on in a second, but from the Year 13 website they did with C, a and Z I wanted to read what they say. What is an accountant and what do they do? So this is what they're trying to tell you know 16, 17, 18, 19-year-olds. Right On its surface, accounting is about using strategic and analytical skills to support individuals, businesses and organisations to achieve their goal.

Speaker 2: 18:39

Yep.

Speaker 1: 18:39

I don't think you really. There's no numbers in that was there.

Speaker 5: 18:42

No, it's true and that's yeah. You don't have to use the wanky words, and that covers it.

Speaker 2: 18:46

And this goes to my point before around education. I think we need to get in very early. You know, even Year 7, 8, 9, 10, even, as you know, kindie, like whatever. A lot of these kids aren't seeing accounting as a profession because they just don't see it. So and they do One when they hear about it, they don't understand what it is, so they completely disregard it unless they know somebody. So it's really important, I think, for us as an industry to get in very, very young.

Speaker 2: 19:11

And I was part of Many years ago, part of the See, our Young Speakers program, where we went to schools and universities, just, and I was, you know, a few years older than them, but I was explaining what I did, just a few, and I was explaining what we did and it really you can see the little eyes light up like because they have absolutely no idea. And so if we want to attract people into the industry, we have to get them young, because by the time they're at uni or they've decided on their degree, it's too late. You know, we've got to get in early.

Speaker 1: 19:39

And it's. I want to move on to the next question I've got, but, like, I think there's also this element of we have to try and appear to look cool and be rad and be awesome and Just be you and this kind of stuff like no man.

Speaker 5: 19:49

You just got to be yourself. Just be who you are. It's all about yourself. Just be yourself If you wear a suit, rock that suit If you like.

Speaker 1: 19:54

have tattoos, rock those tattoos. Like, if you like, fitness, dude that like don't try to be what you think people want you to be, because they'll figure that out. First ever keynote, first ever speech that I've ever written and I keep getting to talk about it again because I like it is there's the Oscar Wilde quote everyone is taken, be yourself.

Speaker 2: 20:12

Be yourself, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:13

Stop trying to create that, because what happens is, by trying to create that, you then continue the perception of the stereotype that exists.

Speaker 2: 20:19

And it's so hard to, as opposed to just be you. It's so hard to live a perception that isn't authentic and at some point people sniff it out.

Speaker 3: 20:27

It's and you get exhausted by it. Are you saying the fake beard?

Speaker 2: 20:31

sleeved shirt and hat that I bought is a waste of money.

Speaker 3: 20:34

It is a waste of money.

Speaker 5: 20:35

actually I bought it to be like you, andrew. I had a dream the other night that shaved my beard off. God, I wish you were wearing that right now. God, that would've been interesting. Honestly, I had a dream that I shaved my beard off, did you?

Speaker 1: 20:43

cry Um, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I remember waking up with this need like sensation yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:51

No, definitely not.

Speaker 2: 20:53

I know I can't, I can not shave for like 100 years, andrew just asked, Andrew just asked Amy and I if we could grow beards Better than Jack A brutal, brutal.

Speaker 1: 21:02

Jack claims he can't Brutal.

Speaker 5: 21:03

All right we're going to move to the second question, so we can keep rolling through.

Speaker 1: 21:06

This is another question of why and I think this is another challenge we have within industry. Right, so we're going to attract people, we're going to attract them as a career, but we also want to maintain and we want to retain our people. We don't want them to leave, we don't want them to go somewhere else. We'd love to have great, longstanding, impactful, great people. Why would someone not want to stay? Why would they choose to leave the industry to do something else, to pursue other things?

Speaker 5: 21:31

Because they're not respected or they don't feel validated or they don't feel heard, they don't feel like their opinion matters, they don't feel like they're actually achieve.

Speaker 1: 21:40

I feel like you have a lot of insight in this one. I don't know why you're talking about that. You spend time in boardrooms with, like the people who are not the owners of the business, and they open up right yeah, definitely, and that's what it all comes down to.

Speaker 5: 21:52

A lot of it is is that they don't feel like either there's enough career progression, that they have autonomy in their role, but equally, they have boundaries around what they're actually trying to achieve that they're actually Like. One of them is I'm just going to use this as a random one, but there are a lot of females out there that go off and have children, for example, and then come back and then their role has changed and therefore their role is it's assumed Ali you were saying this before but like it's assumed that they can't continue doing their role. It's assumed that what they were doing before is no longer achievable.

Speaker 2: 22:25

Therefore, it's assumed they don't want the promotion. It's assumed they don't want the opportunity and so it's not even presented to them. And I remember, actually a really revelationary moment for me was when I was at a big four an employer choice for women and for the first time in my life, one of my partners came up to me and said you know, ali, I was going to, I wanted, I had an opportunity and I didn't know whether to put it in front of you, and I made this assumption that maybe you didn't want it because you just had a little one, but I'm going to ask you anyway. And she put the opportunity in front of me and I absolutely jumped on it and I went home that night and I cried because for the first time I'm going to cry about it now, somebody had actually not assumed what I wanted as a woman, as a career woman and as a mother.

Speaker 2: 23:09

And there are women and I speak to them every single day that have unconscious bias pushed upon them and people making assumptions around what they want, and it is completely unfair and untrue and I'm sick of people saying it doesn't happen because it does Yep regularly and that is a major part of women leaving the profession. Because when women the CA numbers are, when women start, when people start in the profession, there is more women than men and then, when we get here to a certain level, there's more men than women. And I can tell you why it's happening. I can tell you, I've lived it. I've spoken to so many women who reach out and say exactly the same thing to me.

Speaker 5: 23:50

It's just that people aren't hearing it because they don't want to hear it and I'm so sick of it Because I don't want to, but also because they don't want to adapt. They don't want to think differently, and I think that that's the challenge. Right is that people leave because the business that they're in doesn't want to evolve at the pace that they want to evolve in terms of their own needs, desires, career opportunities. I'm going to quickly plug something that is nothing to do with.

Speaker 1: 24:16

In Sydney, on March 22nd, I think it is, the county innovators is doing their first ever summit and it's called I think the theme is called the business case of agenda equity.

Speaker 2: 24:29

You're absolutely right.

Speaker 3: 24:29

You're absolutely right.

Speaker 1: 24:30

That sounds like oh, we should just pay women more, Because no, that's not what it's about.

Speaker 3: 24:35

I mean. Yes, there will be elements of that.

Speaker 1: 24:37

We should pay them equally and fairly, but the idea of how do we understand that there is a great and fantastic business case, that if we really pay attention, of proper levels of equity throughout our businesses, how they can repay it so you?

Speaker 2: 24:48

should come and hang out with them.

Speaker 1: 24:50

XPM.

Speaker 2: 24:51

Julia Gillard is speaking at that she is, and it's going to be amazing. Shay Thio is hosting. I'm going to host the panel. Good, yay, and this is what I wanted to say Men, please attend. Do you know? I go to all these women's events and there's only women. It's like we're talking to ourselves Like, please just go.

Speaker 1: 25:08

I would say you should market it better. That's the sense. No, that is on us. That is on us.

Speaker 2: 25:14

But if you have an opportunity to go, why don't you just go and listen to what is being talked about? It's actually really great stuff.

Speaker 1: 25:21

Alright, I like that. What I also want is people choose to leave because they get burnt out. So let's talk about the burnout element Now. We were talking about this earlier, the idea of burnout. It's like we pretend like our only industry is the one that faces change. Oh damn it. The ATO changed something. Have you seen builders in the last few years and cost increases? Oh man, I have to adjust this new technology. Are you a marketer in this room dealing with AI? Like think of? Everybody goes through it, right? So, whilst it is absolutely validating for us to appreciate and understand that we go through change and that's challenging and it's stressful, the reality is it's everywhere. Everybody goes through it. So, hey, we're all in the same boat. My boat says accounting and your boat says marketing and your boat says building and the like and the like.

Speaker 1: 26:08

So how do you approach being more comfortable with the stress and the pressure that regulatory change, that pressure from clients, that all the stuff that happens within whether you run a business or whether you're simply a team member? Simply, that sounds like it's dumbing it down. Whether you're a team member in a business, how do you approach and deal with that in a way that means you stay and then, as a leader, how do we do that?

Speaker 2: 26:30

On a personal level, from my perspective, and what I've done in my life is to have self-care, to prioritise my health and well-being so that I'm capable and ready and adaptable and can do that. But I think it also depends on where you work. Is that your?

Speaker 1: 26:45

6am gym workout session. Yes, 6am gym workout every single day. I'm not getting up to do a gym workout session. What else can I do Next? I?

Speaker 5: 26:53

think there's an element of reframing what your perception of needs and wants actually is. Am I doing this because I actually want to do this? Am I doing this because I think that that's what other people want me to be doing, or I think that that's what I should be doing in order to get the validation that I need from others so that I can be perceived as successful per se? In inverted commas, I think there's also a reframing around working out what you actually want to achieve, why you're doing things where you're at, but also working out what you can take on and what you can't take on. I feel like I'm in a room full of overachievers right now. We're all probably guilty of wanting to do way more than what we probably should or want to do, but not feeling to your point.

Speaker 2: 27:35

Allie, though, is having that care element not feeling guilty for wanting to try things new, but also not guilty for not achieving those things if we don't achieve them to the levels, because there's also an element here of I've had 30 years in the career, but my role when I started to where it is now is wildly different. But I had to be opportunistic, I had to push for it, I had to go for change, and so I worked out very early on that most probably taxing compliance wasn't my goal. Taxing compliance wasn't my jam, but advisory was. So I think you have to, instead of saying, well, I'm going to leave the profession. You've got a massive skill set, is there something else within the profession that you think that you might want to try out?

Speaker 1: 28:15

I mean it's an enormous profession. I was going to say the same thing.

Speaker 3: 28:19

You left the profession.

Speaker 1: 28:21

Well, I'm still in the profession.

Speaker 3: 28:22

You're no longer practicing.

Speaker 5: 28:24

Now I'm not on the tools anymore, just like you, mr Plummer.

Speaker 1: 28:28

Oh wait, nothing wrong with Plummer's either.

Speaker 3: 28:31

I'm on the bus and he kicks me back, but you're right, because when we were having this conversation, I had to think to myself why did I decide? I mean, part of it was I think I felt that I was. I was working with clients, but I wasn't able to work with them to the degree that I wanted to. I was like I want to get into this, but you know, the fees were what they were. I couldn't spend a day a week with each of these people and I wanted to. So the opportunity to get into tech where I could focus and just work with one business and really invest my time that was just something that I wanted to do.

Speaker 3: 29:08

But I still love the profession. I think what we do as a profession is incredible the impact that we can have, the stories you can talk to any accountant and they all have countless stories about the people that they are. They bend over backwards for their clients. Sometimes maybe they shouldn't they should be charging more or not be taking that 11pm call but it's like it's an amazing group of people because they're doing those things and I think when it comes to burnout, it's part of why people leave the profession. And I often look at the big four accounting means and I'm like they're so wildly accurate, it's not all the follow if you're not out there big four accounting means.

Speaker 3: 29:47

I did my time and I enjoyed it and it's fine. I look back and I'm glad I did it, as I think everybody who did it does, but I'm glad I got out before I got burnt out. I think it can burn you out. And to Ali's point as well.

Speaker 1: 30:01

I tried to lure you into Illuminate soon, he said I was so close. I was so close.

Speaker 4: 30:06

I really wanted to. I did want to.

Speaker 3: 30:08

I just wasn't responding enough because I was in a counter. I've still got a chair jack written on the back of it. But to Ali's point as well there's just so much opportunity to count it, you find your firm, find your niche. There's firms that are in creatives. There are firms that are dealing with X, Y and Z. Find your group of people, Find your Illuminate, Find your all in, Find your firm and I think burnout Matt. You have a bigger impact on burnout when you're doing stuff you don't really love that much.

Speaker 3: 30:39

Yeah, that's right, you feel it more, so you find you, and I think that's such a great thing.

Speaker 1: 30:42

I feel that there's a level of responsibility in leadership within accounting firms on this as well. So if we talk, about people leaving the profession. Yes, there are people who end up being owners of businesses and they choose to move to run plumbing shops. Still, I'm an accountant.

Speaker 3: 30:57

I still do accounting. Oh, here we go. Yeah, it is. I'm very invested in illuminating. It's all right, can't let it go.

Speaker 1: 31:04

But more often than not I would have the assumption that those people have probably not yet moved into equity ownership or potentially even management. Maybe They've made the call, they've looked up and they said hell no.

Speaker 2: 31:13

I don't want that. It's a mangy carrot.

Speaker 1: 31:15

So the people that they're looking up at and going. So we have a team member that joined illuminate who's a chef and he's been trying to work with illuminate for a few years. We've ignored his resume because it said he was a chef and eventually we went ah, maybe we'll have a chat with him. Top two, cameron, you're a legend.

Speaker 1: 31:30

But he was looking at his future and he was looking at the chefs that were older than him, who'd been in this industry for years and years, and he said they were angry, they were grumpy, they were always at work and they were never fun to be around. And he said I've got young kids and I do not want to be that person. So he wanted to move to become a bookkeeper to change that, because he saw bookkeeping as a steady job. It meant that he wasn't working mornings, nights and weekends and it gave him the ability to. How funny is perception of that. I wonder how many accountants go. I want to be a chef and run a cafe instead so I can have a flexible life and I like that. Sam's laughing.

Speaker 1: 32:06

He's probably seen a few people who've made that choice to start a cafe and realize it's a fail?

Speaker 5: 32:10

Yeah, run a cake business, sure, but what are we doing as leaders and as managers and as owners of these business?

Speaker 1: 32:15

that creates the perception that a career in accounting is stressful, is not enjoyable, is not impactful, is not purposeful, and thus people decide not to be there. And I'm not saying that it's not stressful, it is stressful.

Speaker 2: 32:30

It is challenging, but, like you said before, every industry would have their stresses.

Speaker 2: 32:35

Every job has its stresses and it's how we manage that and what we do with that. And I think the wonderful thing and I just want to bring it back to community for a minute the wonderful thing about the accounting community is that we band together and that we are a community of a competition and hopefully that is going to continue on. But there are groups in the community where we all communicate Facebook groups, for instance, and I challenge everybody to think about being positive, to really uplift other people, not make it a whinge session.

Speaker 5: 33:08

But to actually be a ching and moaning in those groups.

Speaker 2: 33:10

Yeah, it's so tiresome reading those posts and my concern is that their majority is looking and not wanting to be involved because they don't want to get into the whinging. And we all understand that things happen and change isn't nice and it doesn't feel comfortable. But I think if people could just think about what they're putting down in words to a larger group within this community and just try and bring some positivity or if somebody is trying to be positive, don't bring them down, let them go, because we're all allowed to have different opinions. And that's what I want for this community to support each other and not to tear each other down and just whinge. And that applies to tech. People also Don't get on a Facebook group and whinge about the tech. Seriously. That's what support is for Go contact support.

Speaker 3: 34:00

But we have to support each other, I'm available, you don't have to.

Speaker 5: 34:03

I'm available for support. That's right. I think this is the first time we've talked about this and I can escalate if you need it. There's one I can escalate to support if you do.

Speaker 1: 34:10

I love that too, ali, and that's something that I'm super conscious of as well is that we need to be positive, we need to lift people up, we need to encourage people, and if we're constantly complaining and bickering and moaning, people are watching that they're watching it. And if that's all they see, that's all they believe in. And I've been through times that illuminate when I was in shit moods and I guarantee people looking at me going this is shit.

Speaker 2: 34:32

You have to be mindful of that. This is perception, reality. Create your own story. Is that the story that we are creating? Because I'm concerned that if we continue down that pathway, that that is the story we are creating, and we are bigger and better than that.

Speaker 1: 34:46

I'm bigger than you in terms of weight. Am I better Weight? So we go A few other things Stop that.

Speaker 2: 34:54

Well, how can I grow a beard? You'll have to have that with Jack. I can't do it.

Speaker 1: 35:02

Friends, you've been amazing. We do have a special guest I mentioned. He hasn't performed, oh yes, and at least I'm going to say about six months or so.

Speaker 2: 35:09

But his last performance, I have to say, should have received a standing ovation, and it most probably did, so some of you might have been in the room when he spoke passionately about our industry at ZeroCon where he spoke.

Speaker 1: 35:20

what he spoke echoed through the industry, in boardrooms, social media and surely over many long hot that eventually became very cold showers Will Buckley come on down.

Speaker 2: 35:31

Come on down Will.

Speaker 1: 35:32

Thank you for joining us. Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, yep, so you're ready to go? Oh, you brought, and Will's brought, me a beer. As David, who edits our podcast, has realized that I've changed microphones to channel two and Will's on one.

Speaker 5: 35:49

Well, you actually kind of inspired tonight's event Did.

Speaker 4: 35:53

I, you did. So bringing the love back into the profession. Well, first of all, rep a podcast. I haven't seen a live one and I brought the beer down for Andrew because I feel like I was watching him sip away and I feel like the conversation was getting better and better every time I took a sip. Jack's having a go now, so we're good. You might want to listen back to stuff. So I've got one question, yes, and I want to give you as long as you want to talk.

Speaker 1: 36:17

We'll shut up unless we really feel like we have to.

Speaker 4: 36:19

No, let's get back to you guys, but I'm happy to have a young with everyone and I want to see how we go, so a few months ago at Zerocon, you jumped on stage and you talked about some stuff, some of it, which inspired Amy for this.

Speaker 1: 36:29

Let's bring some love back Talking about perception, that kind of stuff. It's been a few months since then. Couple of minutes, six apparently. Apparently who's counting? So it's six. It's probably about six Give or take.

Speaker 4: 36:41

What change.

Speaker 5: 36:41

Have you seen?

Speaker 1: 36:42

Since then, what change have you seen and what makes you excited, and what stuff are you still longing and hoping for?

Speaker 4: 36:51

Six months is not a long time to see a lot of change.

Speaker 1: 36:54

But you've had a lot of change in six months.

Speaker 4: 36:57

I've had a great six months Thank you for asking so when I was standing on stage in front of what Three, 3 and 1 half thousand attendees at Zerocon pouring my heart out about how much I love the profession, how much I respect it, and I told a story which I'm confronted with daily, which is the grass is always greener on the other side.

Speaker 4: 37:16

So I copped out and I went and joined the software world quite early on in my career. So, similar to a lot of these panelists, I joined accounting fresh out of high school, didn't really know what I was getting myself into, but really grateful and glad that I did land on that pathway and I had an opportunity to join Zerocon. I jumped at it after starting my own practice and not really seeing that one go all the way through. So for me, I spent almost 10 years at zero and every day can confidently say that, confronted with the choice of do, I want to go back into practice and just live and breathe this. There's those who can't teach, those who can do, and I'm always someone that just feels like I maybe didn't grasp the opportunity to go and do what a lot of the people in the room have done and a lot of what the panelists up here are still doing?

Speaker 1: 38:10

Is this where we announce that you're going to join Illuminate?

Speaker 4: 38:13

You can keep trying.

Speaker 1: 38:14

No, ok, he's not, it's a very attractive opportunity.

Speaker 4: 38:18

Thank you for the opportunity and so I was on stage and I was really nervous about coming out and just telling this story. But what has happened since I jumped up and poured my heart out? A lot of people were reached out and just shared their stories of how maybe collectively, we haven't done the greatest job of standing up for ourselves in conversation and feeling the confidence and pride in ourselves to speak what's on our mind and how we really feel about ourselves. And I think what's happened in the past six months is, as this current economic cycle starts to turn a little bit and we go into the next one, it's becoming very clear how much substance exists in this profession. That's maybe something that's very important.

Speaker 4: 39:03

The rest of the world that sits outside of the profession has maybe not necessarily taken for granted, but hasn't necessarily recognised as much as what is happening right now. So I don't want to use terms like the accounting profession has bottomed out or is at its low point. If I just look ahead at how I feel about the next decade, we've seen how VCs have poured money into the tech industry over the past 10, 15 years, which is great and great for innovation. I spend time working with some VCs and I know that there's a lot of VCs that are really sweating what the next couple of years looks like, because there's a lot of vaporware out there that has taken a lot of money, and so there's definitely a keen eye of private equity looking at the different business models that exist that have a lot of substance to them, and there's absolutely a lot of private equity funds that are looking to invest in the accounting industry right now, which for me, is a very clear signal that we have all done a great job in choosing to become accountants, in choosing this profession, because it does have a lot of substance, it does make a difference, and as we come out of this current cycle into the next one, I think that's something to be incredibly positive and excited for.

Speaker 4: 40:15

So for me, I look at the next 10 years.

Speaker 4: 40:17

I don't really know what I'm going to do yet, hence the conversation Andrew and I had this morning but I see a lot of upsides to the accounting profession and for me, the past six months, what I've noticed has probably been a shift in we're not talking as much about the problem that we've found ourselves in, not cast any blame or any guilt, but happy to take responsibility for ourselves and it seems like there's a shift that we're now starting to live in the solution, which is probably the most important piece. So you can fall in love with the problem, but it's most important to live in the solution. And this conversation tonight to me has just kind of capped off that everyone's looking for ways of how we can go forward and start projecting ourselves outwards into all the good and the substance that we do bring, and what can we do with that to move the industry forward in a really positive direction. So that's been my take in the past six months while I've been sitting on the beach sunning myself, doing all that pina coladas that lifestyle.

Speaker 4: 41:13

You look very tanned mate. This is a good tan for me.

Speaker 1: 41:17

Thank you for noticing. That was good. I'm going to give you a big hand there. Thank you, you can hang for. Nah, you're going to hang for a sec, just in case. Just in case.

Speaker 1: 41:28

We're going to open up and case this. Anything from anybody on the panellists the room. Is there anything you want to throw out, whether it's to Will, whether it's to the rest of the crew at all, or do you want to cut it? Drink some more beers and have a good time? Anyone online want to ask a question? No, I think we're good there. I got a question.

Speaker 4: 41:47

Oh okay, go Any panellist, Not you, Andrew, You've spoken too much already. So I'm an accountant, proud accountant. I spend a lot of time in the sales world and business developments and sort of refining the sales skills Chartered accounting or the other one.

Speaker 1: 42:03

Shark accounting.

Speaker 5: 42:05

Chartered like CAA and Zed or the.

Speaker 4: 42:07

P4PASS or Chartered. I'm industry agnostic so I'm pro accounting. Let's not drive a wedge between ourselves right now. You're not paid by your software companies. I am free game Question for the group because I've spent a lot of time learning a little bit about the sales skills, sales techniques, how to go through and scale businesses and grow businesses, customer relationship, customer service and there's some great businesses that can be built just on good customer service. When I think about the accounting industry and what everyone's experienced, one of the greatest sales techniques that I've ever learned is to get the buyer to consider the alternative, and so I guess I would like to ask a question to the panelists how do you feel that the general public and the economy would go considering the alternative to the accounting profession not doing what it does for our broader community? Consider the alternative, what happens?

Speaker 3: 43:05

I mean the short answer is it's not good, right, like there's so much stress, there's so many sleepless nights, there's so many business owners who aren't aware of the risks they're in, or I mean it's an endless rabbit hole to go down, because it's amazing to even think about, it's a strange question to be presented with, because it's like the world wouldn't function. It's really that deep.

Speaker 4: 43:30

And I'm sure do you feel like a lot of the clients and a lot of people you've interacted with, if they went on an exercise would feel the exact same way. It's kind of like a little bit of an oh shit moment.

Speaker 3: 43:39

I mean absolutely. I mean the reality is they might come back to you and say, yeah, this is not a reality. I can go down the road and go to another accountant. So it's one of those like well, I'm not comparing you against the alternative being there's no accountants, but as a thought exerciser, as a profession, we should be a bit more aware of what we do for the world. I remember being an auditor and thinking what am I doing? But they try and convince you that you're adding a lot of value and shareholders are appreciating what you're doing, but you don't get to shake their hand or say thank you. That's why I love the small business accounting side, because you do get to meet them and you get to shake their hand and you get to say, hey, you don't have to worry about this or I got that for you.

Speaker 5: 44:25

But don't you just all collect tax for the ATO? So in theory, if you weren't there then as a business.

Speaker 3: 44:30

I've got nothing. Hey, wait, if you weren't there.

Speaker 5: 44:33

No, no, no. Hang on, hear me out. If you weren't there, then you wouldn't be there to collect taxes, which mean that we wouldn't have to pay them. So maybe we'd all be happier. Oh, yeah, no.

Speaker 4: 44:45

I don't know.

Speaker 5: 44:46

There's no one to fulfill the law, like there's no one to actually fulfill what is in law, essentially, so they have to do it themselves. Yeah, I don't know. Look, I've just been following ideas here.

Speaker 4: 44:57

I've asked myself the question. So I'm a disruptor by nature and I just love asking the question of why don't you just go and get a little bit of a break and try to rattle this cage and really understand the fundamentals of it? And you just can't break the accounting profession.

Speaker 5: 45:09

It just underpins so much of the economy.

Speaker 4: 45:11

Death and taxes. Death and taxes is exactly right. It's not just taxes, though. It's like the sound business decisions that happen, like when you release federal budgets, like accountants are all over those spreadsheets building up the budgets, analyzing when you get into economic forecasts that reserve banks and financial institutions are building up, and that's the narrative here, which all is underpinned by the financial information that is created, available, and then what people do with that information, and accountants have their fingerprints all over it. So, whether you're in practice or in industry or in government, there's plenty of substance to it, and I think that's something that everyone can sort of hold in in super high regard around what the future holds and go from there Great.

Speaker 1: 45:53

I might put a challenge to those listening and those here. We always ask for our clients for reviews. Give me a five star review for how good it is. Ask for feedback. How would you think it would have gone if I wasn't here when you needed me? Much like, if I wasn't here, if I wasn't doing this thing, if I wasn't helping you through this challenge, how do you think you would have gone?

Speaker 1: 46:14

Reflect on that for a moment and then say can you then put that in text and put that in Google and put a five star for me? Thank you very much. That's a good reminder of what we do that is good, of the impact that we create. I think the Year 13 note that I was looking at just beforehand, if I can pull it up without too much challenging was this is what makes accounting so useful in just about any kind of business or any industry that you can think of. The impact of what we can have goes beyond just what that looks like. I think that's a nice spot to finish. Do we think good? Do we feel?

Speaker 4: 46:48

good, Thank you.

Speaker 1: 46:49

Will. Thank you panelists. Thank you panelists. Thank you panelists. Thank you everybody, everybody has come and hang out with us today.

Speaker 5: 46:56

I'm going to switch to my one audience.

Speaker 1: 46:59

Amy, you have coordinated and managed and put on today. Do you want to share a bit of thanks and we'll finish on up.

Speaker 5: 47:05

Just thanks to everyone for being here. Thank you for the support. Thank you for showing a love. Eat the cupcakes. They're lovely as well. Thank you for my panelists You're awesome.

Speaker 1: 47:16

Love you guys. Love you guys. You're amazing. Thank you very much. Thank you. You'll see us around at various different events, conferences, and just listen to more podcast stuff and rock on. Thanks guys. Woo, wasn't that a fun adventure, my friends. Thank you so much, so incredibly much, for hanging out with us today. Allie, you've been amazing. Andrew, you've been all right. How good is it to be able to have adventures together.

Speaker 2: 47:49

It so is, and you know what. Keep following us. We are all over the socials at Accounting Adventures. Check us out on the website. Give us a bit of a like. You know how much we love that stuff.

Speaker 1: 48:00

The best thing about the adventure is the people that we do it with. So thank you so much for listening, thank you so much for hanging out with us, and please bring all the ideas. Keep Rick Heman becoming. We can't wait to share more cool adventures with you.

Speaker 5: 48:13

We love you guys.