From Balancing Books to Managing Teams

Speaker 1: 0:01

Ellie. Yes, andrew, it's pretty good that we're cloud accountants these days, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 0:07

Oh, absolutely Love it, Yep life changing.

Speaker 1: 0:10

There is one pitfall of having a paperless office, though.

Speaker 2: 0:14

Is there, though. What's that?

Speaker 1: 0:17

It's when you go to the bathroom. Oh, come on.

Speaker 3: 0:23

You weren't expecting that one to come out, were you mate?

Speaker 2: 0:25

No, not where I go. When I'm thinking paperless office, I have to say it's so sad that nobody has gone that paperless.

Speaker 3: 0:32

It's just all about the bidets here, I guess.

Speaker 2: 0:37

That's gross.

Speaker 1: 0:38

Now the reason I bring that joke up is it's kind of got something to do with the topic. It has nothing to do with the topic. It kind of does because, it's like workplace environment and we're talking this is in our little series this year of like taking the steps. So we've already talked about junior to senior, like how do you come like an account with more experience and knowledge? But we're talking about moving from an accountant to a manager. So it's workplace environment, stuff, so paperless office, senior to senior oh, it's a stretch.

Speaker 2: 1:07

Look, I'll give it to you because it was a funny joke, but it's well a stretch.

Speaker 1: 1:11

David, please put the theme tune on. I need to rescue him before he gets started. All right, so apparently, while I was impressed with the joke, I was unimpressed with my attempt to connect it to a theme. I will accept that it was a poor effort, but I will also accept that it was a pretty darn good joke.

Speaker 2: 1:41

So I think we need to be really clear on what we're trying to achieve from this episode. So it's about the move in the workplace from a accounting role to a management role.

Speaker 1: 1:51

So whether that be, moving like you, you kind of. I guess to some extent you might be in production, you know you might be still doing the work, but I think it's more like management, is like understanding what work needs to be done.

Speaker 3: 2:03

Or how it should be done when it should be done why it should be done.

Speaker 1: 2:07

It's really starting to, I guess, ask a lot of questions around what it is that you do, rather than just simply being good at doing it.

Speaker 2: 2:14

Right yeah, and I think for me it was one of actually the hardest roles in any role I've played in an organization, because it kind of feels like you're the meat in the sandwich, because you've got people that you're reporting to as in your bosses that you need to keep happy and the clients but you've also got a team that you need to lead, grow, review their work, educate. It's the whole shebang. So you are literally the meat in the sandwich and it can be a very difficult thing to manage being a manager.

Speaker 1: 2:46

Talk to me, we'll start. Talk to me your personal experience. When was the first time you had the word manager in a job title of yours? You know whether that was in the accounting space, whether it was at Maccas or River Creek do you remember the first time?

Speaker 2: 3:00

you had you like in a you were a manager, yeah it was in the accounting space and I was most probably about nine years into my career. I definitely wanted it earlier. I was having conversations with them around the four, five year mark and then they were putting all these, like you know, targets that I kept meeting but they kept pushing back.

Speaker 1: 3:19

So, anyway, when I got there that's another call for another day. That's a different episode, mate. That's the other stuff. When did it happen? Talk to me about it. When did it?

Speaker 2: 3:27

happen. Yeah, it was around about that eight, nine year phase and I'd already kind of been acting in the role for let's be honest about three or four.

Speaker 2: 3:33

So for me it wasn't that massive a change but I have seen that in my role obviously since then is having people step into that management role and how it can be a very difficult journey if you aren't prepared and you don't have somebody kind of there holding a hand mentoring you. If you're kind of doing it alone, it can be a really rough journey because you are moving from being this technician and you still need to be the technician and you still need to know everything about it, but you definitely are moving more into that workflow, management, communication, education, piece of your team, you know, management of your boss or partner, management of clients.

Speaker 1: 4:14

It's a lot it's a lot right. So, like, when you had the job title manager, were you assistant manager? Were you manager, were you senior manager? Like what was to be the actual title.

Speaker 2: 4:24

Yeah, so I was in a mid tier at the time so it just went straight to manager. But I know in big four they go junior manager, senior.

Speaker 1: 4:31

Oh yeah, there's like this AM1, 2, 3, to 430. Did you like? Was it a big deal for like? Did you like? Get new business cards printed and like did you have a bit of a celebration, oh my gosh, did I have a celebration?

Speaker 2: 4:44

I would have updated myself on LinkedIn or got it on my business cards.

Speaker 3: 4:48

It was on my email footer.

Speaker 2: 4:49

You know like it was everywhere and I was super, super proud of it and I'd worked really hard for it.

Speaker 1: 4:56

I had, yeah, and it's something that you aspire to too.

Speaker 2: 4:58

Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1: 4:58

You'd wanted it for a while.

Speaker 2: 5:00

Yeah, and I mean that's the point for me, that's what I wanted. Yeah, what about you?

Speaker 1: 5:04

I've never been a manager Isn't that so strange. I went straight from being an accountant to being a business owner. Like I was 26 when I started Illuminate. I spent, you know, five or so years in a big four environment, but that was in and out of like the cadetship stuff, so study and a bit of work. And then I spent about a two and a half, almost three years in a small suburban accounting firm and I would have been referred to as a senior accountant then, I believe. And then I went straight from that to like now I'm an accounting business owner and to some extent, like I think, I missed that level of experience and learning and responsibility. To some extent. That is not detrimental, but like I would.

Speaker 1: 5:49

I think I would be a better leader now if I did have some of that time of understanding management and those things, Because I think there's a lot more accountability and responsibility in reporting and those things that you have to do on a like a fractional level as opposed to as a business owner. Often for me it's just bigger picture stuff. So some of that detail stuff I missed in terms of what's important what's not important?

Speaker 2: 6:12

The accountability in that role is huge and I that's what absolutely helped me and, like I said initially, it was actually, I believe, one of the hardest roles I've had, even as a director in a big four or a business owner. That management role, you are like when I said it before, I meant it you are the meat in the sandwich, it is you are the bottleneck.

Speaker 1: 6:32

Everything kind of lands at you and unless you're vegan vegetarian, and then you'll be like the vegan sandwich, right Tofu patty. Just like respecting everybody out there.

Speaker 2: 6:43

Yeah, totally 100%.

Speaker 1: 6:44

Thank you for being so inclusive so yeah, you're right, I do what I can.

Speaker 2: 6:47

Yeah, you really back me up and support me there. I appreciate it, so that I don't get all the people hating on me.

Speaker 1: 6:51

So but it is interesting because, like I can I mean, whilst I've never had the title, obviously when you start your own accounting business and it's just you and another you are theoretically performing a bunch of things. You're theoretically performing a bunch of those roles throughout time. But it is like I think it's that point now where you are, you're in the middle between people. You're between, theoretically, the owner and the people setting the strategy, and this is what we want to achieve in between the people who are doing that work. And it is a shift of like you're looking up, you're looking down and you're looking sideways Everything lands nearer. I feel like you're juggling a lot more at that point 100%.

Speaker 2: 7:22

You are like a juggling clown with 15 bowls in the air. And one of the things that I know is critical in my business and in most of the businesses I've worked with if that person in that management role isn't functioning, the whole business doesn't function.

Speaker 2: 7:40

And so it is a linchpin role and they need to. You know, they need to be on top of everything. That's the thing, and that's why I think it's so hard to move into that role and to sit in that role and to then still progress from that role. Right, Because how do you progress when you're super, super busy, trying to do 15 things at once? Right, but that's another topic for another day. But what do you think the skills are, andrew, to that a good manager needs in that role?

Speaker 1: 8:10

There's so many things there, like there's probably a stuff that I think about is, like you now have a voice and you have to use it. So there's a difference between, like, maybe being at an accountant or senior account level, where you might not be as familiar with the business or you might not have as much experience, and so, whilst your opinion is definitely appreciated, like there's not an expectation that you have input and stuff. So I think this is the difference when you move into that management.

Speaker 1: 8:38

It's like if you think it's a good idea, you need to tell us why, and you need to be able to back that up with some kind of like actual evidence, Not like oh, I just feel like it is, and don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1: 8:50

I'm a big feeling guy and a lot of decisions I make will be based off what I feel or what I experience. But there needs to be a bit more backing behind that and we've had conversations with our kind of leadership team here, who theoretically are managers, about the difference between, like, just being involved in a conversation and leading a conversation, and bringing information into that space.

Speaker 3: 9:11

And like.

Speaker 1: 9:11

I don't ever want to hear someone go oh, what do you think about that? Oh yeah, I think that's good, like it's like you might as well not be in the room, if that's, if that is if you think it's good, we don't think it's good there's, it's not worth it.

Speaker 2: 9:23

So it's kind of like a manager needs to be a value adder. All right, you need to add value to any conversation, yeah totally so.

Speaker 1: 9:30

there's definitely there. I think it's also like following on that, on that train of thought. It's not just about thinking, it's about knowing. So I think they're doing a good job. You need to know that they're doing a good job.

Speaker 1: 9:40

So that you're looking at your, at the people that might be beneath you in terms of skill set, experience or roles and responsibility. You need to know what they're up to. You need to understand if they're doing a good job or if they're not, because if you don't know, then you can't teach them, you can't lead them, you can't guide them, you can't you know, you can't give back to whomever is running the business the information they need to understand.

Speaker 1: 10:03

You know, if the numbers aren't looking great, why aren't they looking great? I think it's because of this. Well, have you spent time to understand if that's why it is, or have you just think based on what you see? And I've I've had experience with with team members who who are great at what we do, but, like every now and then you go. Well, I'm going to look a bit further into what you think and, oh, here's some information that actually is opposite to what you think, based on data, and the data tells me it's actually something else that we need to look at.

Speaker 2: 10:28

So what are?

Speaker 1: 10:29

you in the management role, doing to extract that information. So you're thinking with knowledge.

Speaker 2: 10:33

Yeah, and I think in that in a traditional accounting from even in mine the manager has the quality review process. They've got the education process right, so that's easy to manage. It's easy to put KPIs around. It's the productivity, it's the targets, it's the billing Once again easy to put a metric around. It's your productivity plus your team's productivity Once again, easy metric to put around.

Speaker 2: 10:59

So you've literally got so many metrics around you, and previously you might have only had the metric of productivity or quality, and now you've not only got that, and that's, I guess, one of those really important steps. You are then, taking accountability and responsibility for not only yourself on your solo journey, but also for your team, right? So the accountability and responsibility extends further, from just one to many, and that's, I think, the hardest part I found in heading towards management is if somebody one of my team members stuffed up and it went through the door, you can't just blame that team member. Yes, they need to be educated and you're supported and whatever else, but you had to take some accountability and that was a really rough role to play sometimes, right.

Speaker 1: 11:41

Because you're like, oh no, Especially when it's like oh, just out of my hands. It's like, look, I know to some extent it is, but what have you done to ensure the outcome was had a higher likelihoodness of success?

Speaker 1: 11:51

And I think that's the challenge in management. It's like you go, well, they had the work to do, they knew what they needed to do, whatever it got in the way, and it's like, okay, I understand that that's what caused it from not being successful. If it wasn't successful, but what did you do as a manager to ensure that we had the highest likelihood of success? And then go wait, I did everything I could, and here is the things that I did, and then greater, where we go. And I find that that's the often people they reflect after either it's gone good or bad on what they did, as opposed to set it up so great. I've got things in place to ensure it goes well.

Speaker 2: 12:26

Yeah, that's true, and I think the other thing as well is they tend to cop the client comms, so you're the one having to taking the beating, and sometimes that can be really, really difficult, depending upon your client base, and so I think that's where, when I reflect on my time as a manager, that was really the pain points. Was just that, me in the sandwich. You know you were just copying it from everywhere sometimes, whether it be a partner, a client or a team member, and so trying to manage yourself and manage all of the targets and still progress your career, that's really where the rubber hits the road, and you actually have to invest enormous amounts of time at that point, like you have to it is a juggle, like you're bang on there, like the amount of stuff that you now have to do.

Speaker 1: 13:11

So you've moved from having to focus on your client base and the work that's in front of you to now your client base, the work that's in front of you, the work that's in front of your team, then all the other projects, stuff that you might now be getting involved into. And I think there's a big thing here that happens in the shift to management and it's like letting go of things.

Speaker 3: 13:32

Yes, that's true, and recognizing the transition.

Speaker 1: 13:35

It's like if you just pick up management responsibilities and you don't delegate or let go or you don't start. I think we didn't like I can't remember if we did an episode back in the day of, like, the most least used word in English language being no like if you're not practicing and using the word no in the right situations. You are massively like overwhelming yourself. You're putting yourself in a position where you're gonna burn out. People are not gonna like you because you become a shitty human and all that kind of stuff, right?

Speaker 2: 14:00

Ah, absolutely. And one of, I guess, the most common failures at that point is to not let go of the technical work, to not give it to the most appropriate team member and to say, oh, it's easier and quicker if I do it myself. And if you continue on that pathway, you are heading towards burnout, because you cannot do the technical work, plus the review work, plus the workflow, plus the management, plus the client relationships, plus the partner relationships. You can't do it all, and so it's at that point you have to, and these are the people that I see. Succeed in management and fail is actually around that little component of can you let it go? Cue the frozen music, david, because let it go, I'm gonna tell you on my arm, it's right there.

Speaker 1: 14:41

It is like for me, I agree, like whether it's in business or in life. It's like understanding, learning what to let go of and being comfortable in that space is so massively critical.

Speaker 2: 14:50

And it's so hard to act.

Speaker 1: 14:51

And I think it's also doubly critical if you were in like a, so I think of illuminates. So we started 10, 11, almost 12 years ago now and it was just two of us. And then, you know, five years ago there was like five of us, and three and a half four years ago there was eight of us, and now there's 20 odd of us. That's crazy. So when you move into management and you've been there for a bit, when there was only five or eight people of you around, to now management, where there's 20 odd.

Speaker 1: 15:19

Even the way you do certain tasks have changed now and so like it can be frustrating because it's not efficient. It's not effective and it's like it's not efficient if you look at this one thing. But if you step back and you look at the hundred of the things that need to be done, it's actually more efficient if we do it that way Whilst it might be and the phrase that I've used at many times and I know other people it's just easier for me to do it.

Speaker 1: 15:41

It's just faster for me to do it. It's just more efficient for me to do it, and I know there are certain situations where I would agree that that should be something you know. Just get it done, get it out the door. It's important, it has to happen now. But if you are saying it's just easier for me to do it, why? It's because you've done it a hundred times over and if you're not letting the other people do it, they don't get the ability to do it a hundred times over, and then it doesn't become easy for them.

Speaker 3: 16:05

Oh, I completely agree. I keep saying right at the end of it assuming you're gonna bloody agree I am completely and actually 100% on the Andrew Bandwagon.

Speaker 2: 16:11

Like this is where you fall back into your comfort zone. Okay, so when you're doing a new job, things feel a bit uncomfortable. You're gonna be orky, you're gonna have some orky conversations, right? So what do you wanna do? Go back to the stuff that you know how to do, and so you're like oh, this person's stuffed it up, it's so easy if I just fix it. And so you go and do it and you don't even question yourself at that point. But you're actually doing it because it's comfortable, because it's what you know. But what you need to do is in that position. Especially as you're transitioning through, you need to feel uncomfortable every step of the way. And it's kinda like doing something for the first time.

Speaker 2: 16:44

Like I remember the first phone call I had to make to a client. I felt so nervous I had to prep for half an hour. It was horrific, right. And then I had, like this, downtime after. Like now it's just, I don't even think about it. I get on the phone to the client Like it's that it's learning a new trick, it's learning a new tool, it's getting uncomfortable with things. Do not go back to the comfortable technician, because it won't do you any favors as you move forward and it won't do you team any favors and you'll end up carrying them and I you know this is one of my stories. I was a manager at PKF, it was and I had five team members and I was modicoddling them. I was like the mother hen. I did everything for them. My workload was enormous as a manager and I ended up going and having my first baby and I hadn't wasn't there for a few months and I came back and they had all excelled and I thought, oh my gosh, I was holding my team back.

Speaker 2: 17:37

And that's what you can do as a manager. You can hold them back by doing their job for them, and it is not benefiting anybody.

Speaker 1: 17:48

I want to hone in on that Cause I think that's a it's a good point is like we're talking about letting things go, we're talking about it's easier for me and we're talking about like the way you lead your team can hold them back. And sometimes it's with the best of intentions, you know like you know.

Speaker 1: 18:02

I don't want to expose them to them, that them to that just yet, cause it's too complex or no. We're not quite ready for that kind of thing, and I love a good process and I love it. We need to work through a thing. If that's step 17 or in step three right now, we probably shouldn't go to 17. We're skipping too much, but like there is a point where you just have to let the motherfuckers do their job.

Speaker 1: 18:21

You have to let them be great at what they do. And, like I talked a lot about like, having the idea of like, like leadership is like having broad shoulders so people can stand on and take it where it needs to go further from, and I think that's.

Speaker 2: 18:34

That thing is like you're not letting them stand on shoulders. You're trying to hold them down, yeah, but also they've got a job in, you know being healthy enough to get up on the shoulders to stand up there. But I, you know, the longer I'm in leadership, the more I'm of the sink and swim mentality Right, Like I used to be a real mother hen in management and now I'm literally like here's your floaties Off you go, you figure it out, guys, you got this, you got this cover.

Speaker 1: 19:04

But like, yeah, like I just I don't know. I think there's just such a huge part of you know, you empower your team and then you let them swim. And you're there if they're drowning. You're not. You're not right behind them, holding onto them. You have to let them be and let them figure it out. They'll come back to you if they need help.

Speaker 2: 19:21

Yeah, I mean, if you entered the water and they were pulling you down, you'd all drown, right? So you do have to have a bit of a single swim mentality, and there might be a few that do drown, but are they in the right place?

Speaker 1: 19:33

Like if you, if you're say, let's assume, ali, you're right, you're now a manager, you're at illuminate, you've got a team of five other incredible accountants underneath you, but they've probably got no more experience, and say like five years max. So anywhere from like one year to five year max and whatnot, if you were to like, do one, maybe two things to ensure that team could be as best as they possibly could be. What, what that be?

Speaker 2: 19:58

Well, it's around finding the right jobs for the right fit, like their expertise level. So allocating the workflow to the right team members and making sure that they're getting the education, mentoring, you know, the right jobs that's my role at that point. And to manage those people, to communicate with them, to teach them, to mentor them that's how I would manage that. How about you?

Speaker 1: 20:22

Yeah, I think, like. I think. Is it that the difference between, like shoving someone in the deep end or teaching them how to swim, and there's that like, like whilst I like both of them to some extent is like you have to let people experience, like?

Speaker 2: 20:32

it's the size of floating that you have not to do it right so they know how to do it right.

Speaker 1: 20:37

So if they only ever know how to do it right, because you're covering their ass all the time, they don't know what wrong looks like. So I think there's an element of that. I definitely think there's a part of like creating Efficient space for that communication so you know if you're constantly, always available and you're constantly, always there for them. You talked about a massive workload, like yeah, you might have delegated things off, but they're never gonna let go of you, then never gonna go. Great, I'll spend a couple of days work on a bunch of stuff and then I know at like two o'clock on Tuesday is when I catch up with Ali or Andrew for half an hour and I go through all the stuff that I'm stuck on and then that way they can. So I think it's really important to Like schedule your check-ins at a certain point, obviously once you know the team, but if you're just available all the time, you're always getting interrupted.

Speaker 1: 21:20

They're always getting interrupted and you're never efficiently working through it and they're probably gonna use you as a crutch more than they should and you'll never release them as much as you should.

Speaker 2: 21:28

I completely agree with that and we are still on the same bandwagon. When I mentor managers, that's actually part of the actually mentor them around how to set boundaries Healthy boundaries with their team, because I've seen some managers give them too much and some give too little. And it's finding the right balance. It's finding what works for you as a manager and it also is dependent upon the level and numbers of your team. So the level of experience in your team, the level of numbers of people in your team, so your management has to ebb and flow depending on where you are, who the boss is, who the clients are.

Speaker 2: 22:01

You know what stage in the season you're at. You know it's like heading into busy season. You're into the roundup phase, you're into the pump and them up to get out and win the grand final. And then when they've, you know they're in the third quarter and they're a bit tired. What can you do to get that extra little mile to get them out and then help them rest and recover to get on to the next. You know, next season, like I think that as a manager you have to be Across all of that. You, like, you've got to be so micro in quality and communication, but so macro in big picture and Try to get stuff out the door like you get across the line.

Speaker 1: 22:42

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Speaker 1: 27:42

I wanted to touch on like not becoming a manager. Because, I feel like in a lot of industries, but obviously we are talking about the accounting industry here. The assumption is the best practitioner as in the best accountant becomes the manager. They are great at what they do, which is a fault in itself. It is.

Speaker 1: 28:03

Whether it's a technical element, if they can punch out a tax return real quick, or whether they can have a good conversation with the client or whether they know complex tax stuff. And then the assumption is, while you then move into management, because you have that you are really good at what you do- it's such a different responsibility.

Speaker 3: 28:20

Like the management is a lot more soft skill.

Speaker 1: 28:21

It is. There is definitely an element of technical you have to support the team, so you have to be a very high technician. But but I've seen it so many times over the wrong people move into that position. The wrong people move into management and then businesses struggle or go backwards or things fall over because they've got the wrong person, because they just went. You're good at doing tax terms. You're now the manager because they feel like we can't afford to lose you, we better put you in management.

Speaker 2: 28:49

It's because they feel like there's not another step and I think that's the responsibility of the employer but also of the candidate like if the the place is too small and it can't afford you to step kind of sideways or another way. What other availabilities are there, and so I know when I was working in the mid tiers to big fours, people like that used to go off into specialties, so they'd specialize in something in particular. Tax.

Speaker 1: 29:14

So how did the little guys do that? Like I, you know, illuminate, we're a team of 20, so we have a little bit of size, but not heaps of size, like if I've got someone who's exceptionally good at what they do and they look after a decent kind of client base and it's like great, now when do you go? Because obviously you know, we want to ensure that we're remutering you well, we want to ensure that you have a career path that you're enjoying, you're connecting to. But, like, at the end of the day, it's not like we're gonna create some crazy specialty that someone can go run and and and get paid a Couple hundred grand as a result of that like it's it's.

Speaker 1: 29:48

It's not easy in the small.

Speaker 2: 29:49

It's not and you. There's some responsibility on that person if they don't want to take the linear pathway to commercialize their specialization or what they do, or just be prepared to sit in it. That's the harsh reality. Is that a bit too harsh, though?

Speaker 1: 30:03

Oh, I don't think it's too harsh, but I think what you're saying is there's a conversation that needs to happen with those people, and the conversation has to be like hey, look, so here's the deal.

Speaker 1: 30:12

Like we're not a huge business, there's six of us, there's ten of us, there's 20 of us, whatever that number is, that there's only this many people. So what that means is there's only that much management responsibility that actually has to be kind of performed here and the. The reason that we would need more matter people doing management activities would be if we have scaled. So, firstly, if you want that kind of opportunity, we have to scale to a point. So what, what can we collaboratively be doing to scale, to get there, so you have the opportunity. But then, secondly, is we recognize that not everybody might be a good fit for this and if they like, if this person saying you know what, I don't necessarily want to do management I would want. I love, I love accounting, I love the, the act and the doing of that fantastic. So my concern for you now is that in five years time.

Speaker 1: 30:56

You might just look at yourself and go. I'm doing the same thing over and over again. My mates are getting paid, you know, 10, 20, 30 percent more than I am, because I've had more opportunity. So what can we collaboratively do to commercialize some of your skill sets in a way that pay you well, because at the end of the day, like it's, it is Dramatically changing how you might pay someone and if everybody else is done like paid one way, and then this one person who's been there for 12 years and you can't afford to lose, and they're really bloody good, or they do you?

Speaker 1: 31:23

go. I've got to find a way to give them an extra 30, 40, 50k.

Speaker 2: 31:27

You have to, they have to Somebody else sitting next to them might be delivering the same thing, and I think that that's the harsh reality of it Is that we have to make a motion.

Speaker 1: 31:38

And you and you can't, and you can't commercialize a certain service that allows you to become even higher income generating because, at the end of the day, we have to make enough money to be able to pay that wage and there are numbers that kind of go to that so that you are the leader team, which means you're generating a larger sum of money across a collective group of people, or you delve into your speciality and you commercialize it further, which means you're able to generate more revenue. And if neither of those two, the option that the challenge is like Well, are you in the right place? See, cpi increases probably what you're gonna get like you depending on where you are.

Speaker 2: 32:15

Unless, you can build a new school set right unless there is something else that you can build to deliver into that business outside of management, whether that. But it's also a tax, okay to.

Speaker 1: 32:27

Not, though, because I think the world tells us that you have to write. The world says you have to move into management, you have to earn more money, you have to have more responsibility, like an and for some people there's an innate desire to have that, but for other people it's like you know, work is work. I love what I do. I'm happy to get paid as much. I don't need anymore yeah, I just need to be able to do what I love, and and getting to the point where they're comfortable with that and say, great, well, awesome, you, just you just sit here and be a great senior accountant. You'll learn, you, I know, depending where you're at, somewhere between a hundred to hundred fifty. Yeah, they might be a bonus.

Speaker 2: 32:58

It's kind of thrown there based on other things, and and you will just continue to iterate across that, yeah and that's fine and and you know different spokes, different folks it just as long as they're okay with that. The issue comes when they're not okay with that and they expect more, but they're not delivering more. And that's really once again, communication, openness, transparency, saying where are you at, where am I at? Is this still in line with each other? And the reality is Sometimes, in those situations, the larger firms have more scale to allow different options. That's the reality and I can't compete with that.

Speaker 1: 33:37

You can't, but at the same time, like you as a leader, whilst, yes, we need to care for our business and our clients and those things that you have, to be looking at that person saying, I don't. I don't want someone in a job that they do not like or they feel Disrespected because of the environment for the long, I'd much rather release them. Yeah, you know, going here. Here's a mid tier, here's a big four. There'll be. I know someone there. There's a. There might be more opportunity, have a conversation and if it turns out that environment might not work for you, that's, that's okay. You can come knock on a door and we'll see what I've had, those conversations.

Speaker 2: 34:07

I've been incredibly respectful and we still get along, and if we hadn't have had those conversations it would be better and twisted by now. Like I think you need to recognize that In every relationship sometimes it's aligned and sometimes that's not. And if it's not, can you get it back on track, and if you can't, then off you go. So be it.

Speaker 1: 34:27

And I think the fear is the risk of like I'm gonna lose this in this team member. They're gonna take all these clients and I think that's what. If you start the conversation early, then it would be it. We manage far better. But if you wait and wait and wait and maybe set some KPIs and they achieve the KPIs and the things not happening, that's when they become disgruntled and that's when the risk is. So you've actually created the risk, not the, not the team member, because you haven't engaged them early enough to say this is what it will look like, this is what I can give you and this is when I can do it and if they go well, yes, they said they could give it to me, but it doesn't look like that because we haven't scaled or we haven't. We don't have enough clients. So I can see why they can't and I'm not gonna be grumpy at my boss.

Speaker 2: 35:06

I'm gonna respect the fact that it's just not feasible and in every organization I feel like I've left, because I've met KPIs that have been sent and I've met my side, but they haven't met theirs and it's become that uneven Distribution, and so that's where trying to be on the same page, as awkward or as uncomfortable as it might be, is actually better than kind of leaving that that sore to fester. So yeah, there are definitely other options available, and it's not just management, but it requires more active communication if you're not going down that linear pathway, which is fair enough.

Speaker 1: 35:43

I think you also, when you're moving into, you know this management role as well. You also have to look at it like is this an existing role that you're just kind of stepping into? You know, maybe the previous person has either moved up the chain or they've moved on or something like that or is it a brand new one that's been created? So because if you think that, like, if this is a role that's never been done before either it's the first time this business has had a manager or they've now got two managers it's very, very different I'm stepping into an existing role Across my fingers. The person before has like systems and processes and reports and I can look at that and I can learn through that and I can tweak and I can enhance and go on. But if it's a brand new, never been done you're in management now. And how do we do that, andrew?

Speaker 2: 36:26

Oh, I don't bloody know You're setting up your role and expectations and they have to set up theirs and you kind of got to meet new ground. I mean that's that can be really difficult. And also, if you're stepping into something, if that person is still around they can mentor you through that process and sometimes it can take time, Like I think, to kind of hit your straps. As a manager, you've got to be two, three years into the job to fully nail the brief and actually understand everything that you're supposed to be delivering and feel really comfortable in it, and so the mentorship if that's there and available is super important and learning from that person. But if you're setting up your own role as a manager or co-manager, yeah, you're going to have to do a lot of communication and I would put KPIs and boundaries on it like super fast, because otherwise it's just going to blow out and people will get upset really soon, really fast.

Speaker 1: 37:22

Yeah, yeah, you're spot on and like, if I think about that, like if you're stepping into a role, there's stuff there, but if you're not, like you're thinking about reporting, like what stuff do I need to be reporting on? Here's a brand new environment. No one's ever been a manager. You now need to start to think, and so I'd be encouraging if you're stepping into a role of management and there's never been a manager there, it's just been the owner and the owner is now stepping up and the manager is stepping in Like what, what things do they need to know?

Speaker 1: 37:49

What decisions are they trying to make? Where does that information come from? How have you looked at it in the past? How would you like to look at it in the future and then also like for me as the manager, what, what things am I held accountable to and thus, what things do I want to put in place to ensure that I can report on that, I have visibility on that and I have a plan to ensure that works. And when you step into a brand new it's never been there thing, you are really designing that space.

Speaker 1: 38:15

And so I think I think one is really important to talk people up and talk to people down. So, like what? You're the meat or the tofu patty in the sandwich, what does that look like? And then, secondly, what training and support can you either get access to within your organization, but also, what are you going to take responsibility for yourself personally? Because if you just sit there and go, well, my, my employer should give me all this training so it can be great at my job. That's kind of like saying you should pay me so that you can pay me more.

Speaker 2: 38:44

Yeah, go back to that, and I don't, and I don't. Yeah, like, I agree 100% that like there's a responsibility there, but it's not all one person.

Speaker 1: 38:53

But we said this in junior to senior.

Speaker 2: 38:55

And it's the same. It's the same thing. You have to take accountability and responsibility for your own education, training and also for setting up the boundaries and the targets and the systems and processes. You can't just land in that position and assume that somebody else is going to do it for you. I think there's a huge part to play in you actually having to develop that and what you create you live in. So be careful with what you create and put time into the systems and the processes and the training and the team and make the hard calls where hard calls need to be made and be brave where you need to be brave, and communicate, communicate, communicate.

Speaker 1: 39:40

And that's probably a good to communicate, communicate, communicate. Get training on communicating as a manager.

Speaker 3: 39:46

It's a different type of communication right.

Speaker 1: 39:48

As a junior or a senior accountant, you're communicating to clients and you're theoretically then just communicating back to someone who's asking you some questions about a job or reviewing something, right? Whereas as a manager, the type of conversations you have are very different. Some of them will be the same, but some are quite different and you need to learn the art of how to hold that type of conversation.

Speaker 1: 40:10

If you know an outcome you're trying to get out of that. You can't just go straight to the point. You have to learn how to ask the right questions.

Speaker 1: 40:16

How to have the flow that goes there, how to empower that individual or how to like sweet talk your boss to let you do something that you believe so strongly should happen. But you can't just say it should happen and they say no, and then you get grumpy. That communication is also so important. So I would absolutely be saying go and find some training in that space, and I know we use AIM, australian Institute of Management, for a lot of training stuff. I think, elle, you're saying AB2, which is through TAR Global.

Speaker 2: 40:45

They use all of that. Yeah, I use it specifically for that transition from senior to manager, because I feel like there's such a hole between technician to management and they are completely different roles. So, opening them up their mindset to something different, you know, it's like creating a new level on your building. You've got to put the scaffolding up, and that's what AB2 does for us. It puts the scaffolding up. But you know, the other wonderful thing is it gives them a peer network of all these other people that are going through the same thing, and so that has been absolutely fantastic as well, because that's something I lent on when I stepped into management was my peer network. I was in a mid tier. There were other managers. I sat with them saying what do I do here, what are you saying there, what should I do, what shouldn't I do? Like all of that informal mentoring, peer to peer support and just getting as much formal education, training as you can and be willing to lean into a few more hours initially until you get your feet on the ground.

Speaker 1: 41:44

One of the things we're doing with our leadership team management people here at Illuminate is just just running some training around running a good meeting, effective meetings and constructive meetings and those things, because what you will find when you move into management what do you know I? Mean meetings all the time, whether it's in person.

Speaker 1: 42:02

Like all the time and I think that's also something that, as a manager, you should really start to understand is how to run a bloody good meeting, how to prep for it, how to deliver it, how to feedback and how to be able to move through those things at pace. So you're not sitting in that meeting for 45 minutes when you could have done it for 15.

Speaker 2: 42:21

And I can tell you that the other people in that room who are there because you held the meeting, have expectations on you.

Speaker 2: 42:26

You will all of a sudden have expectations on you that you never had before, and, whether you think they're fair or unfair, you've got to live up to it. So crack on. So every place that you can be prepared will make you look so much better and make you feel better about what you're doing. And I think that's the other thing as well is that when you step into a new role, you know trying to receive affirmation, feedback is super important. So don't just wait for it, and you know, wait for the performance development Rue. Actually seek out feedback from your team.

Speaker 3: 42:58

Should be ongoing.

Speaker 2: 43:01

And one of the most confronting things ever had as manager was 360 degree feedback. So I had feedback from my partner, clients and team best feedback ever got. But can I also say that, yeah, it was the hardest role, but, gosh, I learned the most and it was the most enriching role I've ever had in it and it created new pathways for me. So you know, it's that saying you know, the hardest thing is sometimes the best thing.

Speaker 1: 43:26

Right. So totally, totally, look at it, absolutely, the years, and I think there's there's just so much you can do in that, I think. I think the other thing that I would also say, like in terms of getting some learning and getting some training and looking at the responsibility, is just process development.

Speaker 1: 43:41

So depending on what scale of a business you're involved in. The smaller the business, the more responsibility a manager will have on how you do that. So, getting some training on how you do that and then with the peer network, like you were saying beforehand, is, you know, starting to utilize that peer network of like how they go about doing things and if you find someone's particularly good at something, ask them what did you do to get? How would you approach this situation?

Speaker 2: 44:01

Show me your spreadsheet. You learn from that thing. Yeah, show me this spreadsheet. Show me the thing.

Speaker 1: 44:05

Why do you use that technology? How do you use that thing? To review things? And because you're looking to make things that are efficient and empowering and enjoyable, and so that process design and understanding how you do what you do is really important. And there's a difference between going well. When I was a junior, this thing just was dumb and frustrated me to actually understanding what building a good process looks like.

Speaker 2: 44:24

But use those frustrations as a junior and pull them into your management, Like the things that frustrated you make sure that they don't frustrate somebody else, or the things that you loved about a manager or hated about a manager. Be really conscious of those things and I think you do need to be really, really conscious of your communication and how you respond, Like I remember as a manager I was this is a story, sorry I was completely and utterly addicted to caffeine about 30 years ago and, oh no, about 25 years ago.

Speaker 1: 44:52

You don't even have caffeine at all now, do you yeah?

Speaker 2: 44:53

I was completely addicted to the stuff. It was instant stuff back then. It was like I might as well just put a droop in. I was having like over 10 cups a day. And I remember when I hit manager, one of my team came in one morning and said, oh, ali, you know she was a bit sheepish and she said oh, have you had your coffee? I said no, I haven't. She said, oh, that's okay, I'll just come back another time. Like, oh, no, no, no, it's fine. I said, no, hang on, wait, wait, wait. What's going on? And she's like oh, there's a bit of a thing like with the team if you haven't had your coffee, that you know, you're just a bit gruff and I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't want to be that manager. So I quit cold turkey. But you have to be mindful of how you're presenting yourself to your team and being really mindful of your moods, right, and the things that trigger you, and being really conscious about those actions because they have an impact, more impact.

Speaker 1: 45:39

You have to be approachable, but you also have to be like respected is probably not the right kind of word but like. You have to be approachable, but people have to respect you, to listen to what you say when you have to bring accountability. So, there's that like you're kind of not their mate anymore, but you still have to be friendly and connected, and I think that's one of the hard things to learn is when you move into it.

Speaker 1: 45:58

It's like crap. I now have to tell people when they do good or when they do bad. But like I can't just do it as like a joke and a mate kind of thing, because it's not taken seriously.

Speaker 2: 46:07

I'm going to throw Lee the lean on this one. That's been the hardest thing when she moved into management was moving from mate to manager.

Speaker 1: 46:15

Yep.

Speaker 2: 46:15

And it's really, it's a tight, it's a tightrope right.

Speaker 1: 46:19

I struggle with it still as owner.

Speaker 2: 46:22

Like why can't everyone?

Speaker 1: 46:22

why isn't everyone my friends? Why don't I?

Speaker 2: 46:24

Because I never will be. Because you have a seniority level but you could do stuff. It's not like winging to the mate next door that can't do anything.

Speaker 1: 46:36

Like all right, we need to start wrapping this sucker up. This has been a really good conversation. There is one thing we didn't know. I'm going to leave this as my Andrew's final tip. One thing we didn't talk here we talked about getting training, so Australian Institute of Management, ab2, we talked about learning things like communication, running good management, running good meetings, process development. We talked about peers, all that 360 feedback.

Speaker 1: 46:56

One thing we didn't talk about and I recommend you do it is mentoring. When you step into a role where you are no longer just in the production mindset but you are now in a management style mindset, it is a different headspace and you are faced with so much more challenges and I believe your worth is challenged a lot, whether intentionally or unintentionally. You will struggle with that sometimes when you get pushed back from people above or beneath you, you might find yourself in rourer conversations with people about stuff, and I think having a mentor and someone that you can kind of open up to about these things that you are experiencing going through, who can kind of hold your hand and reaffirm what you are going through and how you can approach these things, is so incredibly important.

Speaker 3: 47:34

So I mean all the way through your career.

Speaker 1: 47:36

I think it is an important thing to do so, but particularly at this moment where you are literally about to get smacked in the head a bit in the early days, until you are used to what it looks like. You need to have someone there to kind of support you. So that would be Andrew's tip.

Speaker 3: 47:49

Ellie.

Speaker 1: 47:50

You probably were going to say that as yours.

Speaker 3: 47:51

No, I wasn't. Actually. You are going to leave our friends with a tip.

Speaker 2: 47:54

No.

Speaker 3: 47:55

What should?

Speaker 1: 47:55

I other than having a chat with Ellie on how to be amazing at being a manager and stuff.

Speaker 2: 48:00

Of course, it was always open. It was actually for if you want to be a manager, be really open about it. Like, tell people that is what you want to do, put plans in place of how you are going to get there and make the other person accountable just as you are accountable. The amount of boardrooms they have sat around with are like, oh, where is the next manager going to come from? And that I am not from here. They don't want it. And you go out and you talk to them and like, yes, I wanted it for so long. Don't assume that your bosses, managers etc. Know that that is what your goal is. So be as open and honest and transparent as you can be about that, as early as you can be, because these things take time to work through.

Speaker 1: 48:38

Fantastic tips, mate. Thank you for the chance, as always. Oh, thank you. I know I love that and in the county community, you are bloody awesome. Yes, keep giving us your feedback on things you want us to talk about. It has been a fun ride and we will see you on the next adventure soon. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 48:52

Go have a great day. See you everyone, hooey.

Speaker 3: 49:04

Wasn't that a fun adventure, my friends. Thank you so much, so incredibly much, for hanging out with us today. Allie, you have been amazing. Andrew, you have been all right. How good is it to be able to have adventures together.

Speaker 2: 49:15

It so is, and you know what. Keep following us. We are all over the socials at Accounting Adventures. Check us out on the website. Give us a bit of a like. You know how much we love that stuff.

Speaker 3: 49:27

The best thing about the adventure is the people that we do it with. So thank you so much for listening, thank you so much for hanging out with us, and please bring all the ideas. Keep Rick Heeman becoming. We can't wait to share more cool adventures with you. We love you guys.